2-3-03

There appears to be some writing on the note ...

-- Start log: Monday, February 3, 2003 12:04:36 pm AlaMOO time --

Lennie displays slide #2 on Web:
<http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/2-03/slideb.htm>.
Tess says, "I'm Tess Tavormina, from Michigan State U., in the English Dept. -- tavrmina@msu.edu"
Lennie says, "I'm Lennie Irvin. I teach English at San Antonio College. Lirvin@accd.edu."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "As I mentioned, I'm from U of Calgary in Alberta. My email is llbondoc@ucalgary.ca"
Lennie [to Tess]: You are on the faculty there, right?
Tess says, "Yup. 24 years and counting...."
Lennie says, "Wow!"
Lennie says, "If I could convince my family to brave the cold and endure the finances, I'd be up there to complete my PhD in a heartbeat."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "I should add, I'm in the Faculty of Communication and Culture in the Effective Writing Program"
Lennie displays slide #3 on Web:
<http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/2-03/slidec.htm>.
Lennie displays slide #4 on Web:
<http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/2-03/slided.htm>.
Tess says, "We've got a number of folks here interested in digital rhetoric, though I should admit that I'm actually a medievalist who works a lot with pre-honors students, and find the MOO useful for that."
Lennie says, "I bet it is interesting."
Lennie says, "OK. On to our topic"
Lennie displays slide #5 on Web:
<http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/2-03/slidee.htm>.
Lennie says, "I teach a lot of Freshman Comp, and for years used peer groups a lot with my students."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "I, too have used peer response in a traditional classroom,with mixed results"
Lennie says, "When I began teaching with computers, it was a natural to use the computers for me because of my workshop approach to teaching writing."
Tess says, "I've used peer response in paper-based writing classes, but not in any on-line or computer-based settings yet."
Lennie says, "I think some of the same things that make peer response in a traditional classroom work fit in computer settings as well."
Tess says, "And I'm afraid I don't have enough data/experience yet to have good intuitions about how learning happens in a computer networked setting."
Lennie says, "Peer centered rather than teacher centered--or at least adding in the component of peers (if not centered)."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "What has worked in traditional classrooms is the way peer writers can offer feedback at the writer's own level. This would seem to be a good fit for an online course."
Lennie says, "If you feel that students can learn from each other then peer groups make sense."
Lennie [to Linda]: I agree about the same level aspect too.
Tess says, "Do the two of you tend to have the peer response go on during class time (or scheduled time) or outside of a scheduled time?"
Lennie says, "So many of my students begin to "chill out" or not feel as intimidated when they are working with their peers."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "I agree with your comment, Lennie that student centered classes are 'a natural' for online work."
Lennie [to Tess]: For my face to face classes, I tend to start in class and any left overs can be finished for homework on line. For my distance ed class, of course, it is all online.
McCloud_[Guest] says, "to Tess I usually schedule time in class for peer review. "
Tess says, "How long do your distance classes take to settle down to working together, Lennie?"
Tess says, "I ask because I find my freshmen groups...."
Tess says, "tend to spend a lot of time having fun -- a learning element to be sure -- "
Lennie [to Tess]: Teaching online is like herding cats. I can almost never get them all on the same page.
Tess says, "but perhaps not getting directly to tasks at hand."
Lennie [to Tess]: Some will start quickly and get on track, but I'll always have scragglers.
Tess says, "Does that seem different from in-class groups?"
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Is this a funtion of the technology, do you think, Lennie ?"
Lennie [to Tess]: I think the "fun" part is part of the important adjustment phase and socialization to the new environment (especially the MOO).
Tess says, "Yes -- I actually enjoy it myself."
Lennie [to Linda]: If you mean about getting all the students together, I suppose it is a mix of the technology and the simple fact that we are at a distance. I think my colleagues doing telecourse experience the same thing.
Tess says, "And I should say that this is a one-credit class, so there's less time to get used to the environment and start working in more "serious" ways."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "We are just exploring an online writing component to credit courses, so, I'm interested to know what kinds of things both of you do to help that 'socialization' along."
Lennie says, "Even in face to face peer groups some time spent letting them get to know each other and form a group name and stuff is good."
Lennie says, "Same online."
Tess says, "Hmmm... My class met twice face to face first, then they all said they would be using AIM as well as the MOO to talk amongst themselves while we're in class."
Tess says, "I've been hesitating about joining in the Instant Messaging chat, lest I be too intrusive on them."
Lennie says, "Interestingly, I think there is more ability for them to share with each other online. They write longer pieces than they might talk--and more of them get to "speak" because they don't have to take turns."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "A range of opportunities- good idea"
Tess says, "Taking turns is an interesting issue, it seems to me...."
Tess says, "since there are no visual cues to speak of for who's ready to talk next."
Tess says, "Yet following several people's non-linear thoughts can be distracting."
Lennie says, "To add about theory and peer response, I tend to believe in more situated and even inductive movement toward knowledge or truth--and peer groups do that for me (rather than lecture)."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Interesting that some are more comfortable online and write more. this is certianly an advantage over a traditional class"
Lennie [to Linda]: It can be.
Lennie says, "Well on to #2"
Lennie displays slide #6 on Web:
<http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/2-03/slidef.htm>.
Lennie says, "They are sharing their writing the same."
Lennie says, "though the oral aspect is gone."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "It's different that they don't necessarily have to be in groups at the same time"
McCloud_[Guest] says, "There is a more flexible time element"
Tess says, "One thing I like is the recorded element of much on-line peer-response."
Tess says, "or at least recordable, depending on the system."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Yes. It provides opportunity for students to return to the sessions."
Tess says, "Do any of you have a sense of how often students do so return?"
Lennie says, "Sorry. A student stopped by."
Lennie says, "I don't know. I think they will return if you make it part of what they need to do."
Lennie says, "That is what I have found will work."
Tess says, "Sticks and carrots stuff, as so much of teaching."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "From the point of view of having been a student in an online course, I know our class of 14 often went back to the sessions. "
Lennie says, "Peer response with computers tends to get longer and more detailed responses I've found."
Tess [to Linda]: In a grad class or an undergrad class?
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Grad class"
Tess [to Lennie]: Yes, I can see where writing on line draws itself on, often.
Lennie says, "F2F peer response, though, has the element of dialogue that computer peer response (which tends to be asynchronous) does not."
Lennie says, "I have tried to get students to chat about papers and it is really hard."
Tess nods in agreement
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Sorry, F2F ?"
Lennie says, "They can do the single response to each other their peers fine. (Face to Face)"
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Thanks"
Tess says, "My memory of peer response in paper-based writing classes (several years ago now)..."
Tess says, "is that they tended to go around their circles and be more or less done at that point."
Lennie says, "And then if you get them online to chat about the papers it all tends to take too much time."
Lennie says, "That's another thing. Peer response with computers tends to take longer."
Tess says, "Certainly seems like it would be longer time in synchronous setting."
Lennie says, "Often if you get them to chat about the papers they haven't really read the paper."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "But you do get the detail that you don't necessarily get in the paper based classroom"
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Yes, Lennie. The group discussion in class often ends up with students reading a paper there and then. "
Lennie [to Linda]: Yes, but of course you have to guide them into providing detailed feedback. Students in both settings will provide detail, but there is something about sitting in front of a keyboard that gets them to do more.
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Perhaps its the absence of that oral aspect that you spoke of Tess"
Lennie says, "Another thing in an online setting is that students have more of sense of what we might call objectivity."
Tess says, "Do you find that students read all of what their peers send them (If you can tell)?"
Lennie says, "They don't have the peer right in front of them and can tend to provide more honest feedback (without the fear of hurting their feelings)."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "I agree Lennie, and that seems to make students braver, too in presenting their writing to others."
Tess says, "It may be easier to read such feedback asynchronously"
Lennie [to Tess]: Yes. I think they do read each other's feedback. I'm always surprised. I think it goes back to what Linda said about being at the same level.
Tess says, "That's good to hear."
Lennie [to Tess]: I hadn't thought about it being easier for the reader, but I'm sure you are right.
Lennie [to Tess]: I just started having my students write a "reflective" piece based from their peer responses.
Tess says, "I almost always put responses to articles I've submitted (even ones that are accepted) on the desk for a few days before looking at the suggestions."
Tess says, "I feel like I need the mental space to process them."
Lennie says, "So they need to review the peer responses they received to write the short reflection."
Lennie nods
Tess [to Lennie]: I like that strategy -- and it's another piece of writing too.
Lennie says, "YES!"
McCloud_[Guest] says, "That's an interesting idea, Tess. What kind of responses do you ask for?"
Lennie says, "I'm going to move on to point #3, though we have been touching on it already."
Lennie displays slide #7 on Web:
<http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/2-03/slideg.htm>.
Tess [to Linda]: It's been a few years since I did a writing class, but back then...
Tess [to Linda]: I would ask for what seemed to be fairly standard things about broad strategic strengths and weaknesses...
McCloud_[Guest] says, "As to the last question, students would still need guidelines for peer response- what are they looking for and why."
Tess [to Linda]: and about mid-level matters of clarity and lower-level issues of mechanics....
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Thanks, Tess"
Tess [to Linda]: with some guidance in advance from sample papers as to what to look for.
Lennie [to Linda]: I always provide peer response questions to guide them.
McCloud_[Guest] says, "All of these kind of guidelines would translate well to an online course, I would think"
Lennie says, "I think what is gained for peer response with computers is an ease of mechanics of just doing the peer response, added distance to provide and receive feedback and"
Lennie says, "the ability more easily to go back to responses or other drafts for added perspective."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "One thing we haven't mentioned is the ability for students to do peer responding within their own timeframes."
Lennie says, "I haven't been able to deal with the lose of the oral (or is aural) and dialogue in peer response."
Lennie [to Linda]: Yes. I agree.
Tess says, "Some students I know still find computers somewhat off-putting and might find writing notes on a class-mate's paper ssomewhat easier and then explaining it orally. (in an in-class setting anyway)."
Tess says, "Though I imagine the numbers of such students are decreasing each semester."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "I wonder if a platform that allowed real time discussion with audio might help compensate for this?"
Lennie [to Tess]: Could be. Though I think these same students might tend to do more of a peer response with computers simply because of the "distance" that computers afford them.
Lennie [to Linda]: Could be.
Tess says, "And they do increasingly seem to be familiar with on-line chat through Instant Messenger."
Lennie says, "One thing we haven't mentioned is students who might tend to give the wrong kind or inappropriate feedback."
Lennie says, "I find this kind of feedback can be more potentially volitale in an online setting than in face to face."
Tess says, "Hmmm... yes, some things are better not being able to be re-read."
Lennie says, "So often disembodied words online are misinterpreted"
Tess says, "How do you handle such things?"
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Yes. This happens sometimes in traditional settings, but I agree, Lennie, it has more potential to go become a problem online"
Lennie says, "Now onto the best part. "
Lennie displays slide #8 on Web:
<http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/2-03/slideh.htm>.
Lennie says, "I thought we could share how we have managed peer response with computers and talk about it. There are so many different interfaces!"
Tess says, "I may need to bow out on this piece, Lennie, since I haven't done this yet in any extended way."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Nor have I."
Tess says, "Would love to hear about your and Linda's experiences though."
Lennie says, "I could share a couple of ways I have done it..."
Tess says, "or just yours, Lennie!"
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Please."
Lennie says, "Did either of you ever use Daedalus?"
Tess says, "No, 'fraid not."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "No."
RichardB_[Guest] arrives from Conference Center
RichardB_[Guest] quietly enters.
Lennie says, "Well, it was a classic in its time."
Lennie waves to RichardB'
Tess smiles at RichardB
McCloud_[Guest] smiles
RichardB_[Guest] waves back.
Lennie says, "Welcome."
Lennie says, "We are just sharing some ways we have done peer response."
Lennie displays slide #8 on Web:
<http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/2-03/slideh.htm>.
Lennie says, "In Daedalus, it has a discussion board where students could post a paper."
Lennie says, "Then it has a question-answer prompt series activity that teachers can input their peer response questions to."
Tess says, "That sounds useful!"
Lennie says, "So student could open a peer paper out of the discussion board."
Lennie says, "Then open another window that would have the series of peer response questions."
Lennie says, "It is called RESPONSE."
Lennie says, "Once a student finished one peer response, he or she could essentially post that response back into the original discussion board where the papers are."
Lennie says, "What was so great about Daedalus was the guided peer response questions."
Lennie says, "The student would answer one question at a time--each had its own text box to answer."
Tess says, "Could the students print out the questions in advance?"
Lennie says, "The could view and print them yes."
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Is there an opportunity for oral discussion of papers as well?"
Lennie says, "There was something about going one question at a time that seemed to help them do more and better responses."
Lennie [to Linda]: Not necessarily, but there could be. Then it takes more time...
Tess says, "Hmmm... not entirely holistic, then?"
Lennie says, "I could show you the latest way I have done peer response with MOO if you'd like."
Tess says, "Yes, please!"
McCloud_[Guest] says, "That would be great"
Lennie says, "We are going to have to "teleport" to one of my student's rooms. (Don't panic Linda)"
Lennie says, "After I leave just type: join Lennie"
Lennie says, "OK?"
Tess nods
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Ok"
Lennie tiptoes out.
Lennie clicks his heals three times and leaves.
McCloud_[Guest] says, "Join Lennie"
Tess tiptoes out.
Tess leaves.
McCloud_[Guest] tiptoes out.
McCloud [Guest] leaves.
RichardB_[Guest] has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove RichardB_[Guest].
Lennie quietly enters.
Lennie arrives.

-- End log: Monday, February 3, 2003 2:15:19 pm AlaMOO time --