Introductions

(While introductions are going on, I am going to flash a couple of opening items.)  



Lennie says, "I'm Lennie Irvin from San Antonio College.  Lirvin@accd.edu"



susie says, "I'm Susie Crowson from Del Mar College in Corpus Christi, Tx. scrowson@delmar.edu"



Lennie displays slide #3 on Web:



  Today's Special Guest Participant

Patrick Sullivan Pat teaches English at Manchester Community College in Manchester, Connecticut.  The article we are looking at is his third to be published in Teaching English in the Two-Year College.  The others include “Gender and the Online Classroom” (Vol. 95 1999) and “Using the Internet to Teach Composition” (Vol. 28 2000).  Thanks for being with us today, Pat! 



Lennie [to Pat]: I hope it is ok that I swiped your picture...



Pat says, "My name is Patrick Sullivan. I teach at Manchester Community College in Manchester, Connecticut.  psullivan@mcc.commnet.edu. To Lennie: Very resourceful (the picture!)."



Lennie displays slide #4 on Web:



Recording and Retrieving Logs of Sessions You should know that this discussion is being recorded and logged for future access. AlaMOO Recorder Policies (in brief):All participants should be informed that their discussion is being recorded and will be archived on the web. By participating, they are accepting this fact. Anyone using material from this discussion for research and publication should receive consent from those being cited before the researcher uses quotations from any of the participants. "If you can't find'em; don't cite 'em." Logs of sessions may be accessed via the web at the AlaMOO Conference Center Session Logs Home Page (http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/AlaMOO/MOOlogs/logsindex.htm).



susie says, "Sounds like some good articles you've done"



Lennie [to susie]: His stuff on gender online is really good. I heard Pat speak at the 2000 NCTE.



Lennie displays slide #5 on Web:



A word about my moderating of our discussionMy name is Lennie Irvin, and I am an English instructor at San Antonio College. I am the wizard of oz behind these webslides and your host here in AlaMOO. To help guide and focus our discussion, I have prepared a series of "Talking Points." Periodically, I will post a new talking point to move us on to another topic.For those who may need it, a QuickStart cheatsheet is available to help you with communicating in the MOO.



Lennie grins



Pat Another shy grin.



Lennie says, "I think we are ready for the discussion topics"



Lennie displays slide #6 on Web:



Talking Point 1
We will be using one quote from Patrick’s article to guide our discussion: “It seems clear, however, that if educators understand the unique strengths and limitations of this new environment, if online writing tasks and discussion assignments are designed with those strengths and limitations in mind, and if interaction among students is skillfully moderated, a network classroom has the potential to create as rich a learning environment as any we might hope to create in a traditional classroom.”First Discussion Topic: As Patrick discusses using technology in our electronic classroom discussions, he does a good job in his article of lumping together asynchronous and synchronous “e-discussions.”  We will explore the distinctions in these two modes of discourse in a moment, but



Lennie says, "I hope that quote is legible?"



Pat says, "Definitely. It looks good!"



Lennie says, "I like how this quote has three IFS--"



Pat says, "Yes, lots of variables!"



Lennie says, "Broadly speaking I think the greatest strength of e-discussions is multiplicity of participation--everybody gets to participate."



susie (asleep) has disconnected.



Lennie says, "Susie must have been disconnected. She'll be back."



Pat says, "No problem. I also like the fact that everyone gets to participate. If things go well, it's magic!"



Lennie says, "I have been fascinated by the different positionality of a student in an electronic environment--they are spectators of not just the teacher but much more so of themselves, and they are participants before not just the teacher but the whole class.  The student is in a different position sitting in front of a computer compared to a regular class seat."



susie has connected.



Lennie waves to susie



susie fell off line -- oops



Pat says, "Susie, welcome back!"



susie [to Lennie]: can you display the slide again?



Lennie  tosses Susie a line.  Hold on!



susie brushes herself off



Lennie displays slide #6 on Web:



Talking Point 1
We will be using one quote from Patrick’s article to guide our discussion: “It seems clear, however, that if educators understand the unique strengths and limitations of this new environment, if online writing tasks and discussion assignments are designed with those strengths and limitations in mind, and if interaction among students is skillfully moderated, a network classroom has the potential to create as rich a learning environment as any we might hope to create in a traditional classroom.”First Discussion Topic: As Patrick discusses using technology in our electronic classroom discussions, he does a good job in his article of lumping together asynchronous and synchronous “e-discussions.”  We will explore the distinctions in these two modes of discourse in a moment, but



susie is hanging on for dear life



susie says, "I'm still working with trial and error on the 2nd & 3rd IFs"



Lennie says, "Certainly the fact that online discussions are recorded is important"



susie cheers for recorders!!



susie [to Pat]: what sort of "environment" do/did you have in mind when you wrote this? Were you working in MOO?



Lennie [to Pat]: I had the impression at first that the article was about synchronous discussions, but then I figured out that you were keying in to asynchronous mostly.  Discussion boards, listservs



Pat says, "I am finding students who are very comfortable with discussions like this on Instant Messenger, and seem to have embraced this new communicaiton technology with great enthusiasm. They love to talkwith their friends about almost anything. It's like the cell phone, which puts us in touch with people in ways that are very new and wonderful. I called my daughter the other day at college on her cell phone, and she answered in the popcorn ailse of the supermarket in Worcester. Very cool!"



Lennie [to Pat]: I think you might say that one strength is the fact that e-discussion can be more considered (in an asynchronous situation) than verbal or even synchronous discussions.



Lennie says, "The "talker" can spend more time working on what they want to say."



susie says, "Yeah, what Lennie said. Do you teach in computer classrooms or do distance classes?"



Lennie says, "I wonder about the reader?  Part of any discussion is listenening."



susie says, "Sometimes I get so busy reading that i can't get a word written in contribution to the discussion"



Pat says, "I've had a couple of different environments. One was a fully asynchronous environment, where the students never saw each other (except if they felt like having aparty at the end of the semester, which has happend a few memorable times). Other times I use synchronous postings with a classroom full of students. I think there are lots of ways teachers could use this new technology to make class discussions interesting and worthwhile."



Lennie [to susie]: You speak to a common experience I see in my students.  Text overload.  Information overload.



susie [to Lennie]: you mentioned an important point there about reading/listening etc. Do you think good listeners read more and post less? Does it correspond between conversation and synchronous discussion?



Lennie [to susie]: Or I find that students don't seem to be acclimated to online posts.  They think that they are talking to the teacher still, so they have to be trained to "listen" to the posts of their peers.



susie [to Pat]: Do you use a Daedalus type interchange in your synchronous classroom discussions or do you use an IM service



Lennie [to susie]: Good question. That sounds like a good dissertation topic--are you up for another one?



Pat says, "Yes, the reading/listening angle is one that is very important. I have so many students who say they can't wait to read what everyone else said so that they can see those "other perspectives." That kind of curiosity and willingness to engage ideas other than our own is one that I think is very important and may very well be more likely to be developed by spending a semester working in this kind of environment."



Lennie [to Pat]: I think you are right on in situations where there is some engaging topic--a play or story that you've read and you are curious what people think.



susie leaves.



susie arrives.



Pat says, "We've used Blackboard and WebCT at MCC. I'll be moving over to WebCT in the spring (from a Mac-server software that I've used for years and loved called "Interactions.""



Lennie displays slide #7 on Web:



Talking Point 2Let’s take a moment to delve more closely into the differences between these two different types of “e-discussion”—asynchronous and synchronous. What are the unique strengths and limitations of asynchronous e-discussions (most likely held on bulletin boards or listservs)?  What are the unique strengths and limitations of synchronous e-discussions?



susie uses WebCT for distance classes



Pat says, "As for text overload, do you have control over your class sizes? I am able to set mine at 18."



Lennie says, "Mine are 22 or 25"



susie says, "We set distance classes at 18, but usually they bump f2f classes up to 22."



susie says, "we have 22 computers in the classrooms or they'd probably go more"



Pat says, "I find it very difficult to work with many more than 18. There seems to be a "tipping point" around that number for me, where even one or two extra students throws everything off balance and what might be very enjoyable with 18 becomes labor with 22."



susie says, "I honestly don't read all the posts my students make in asynchronous discussions. That's been my solution to text overload. I know they don't read everything the others post"



Pat says, "How much luck do you both have with getting students to engage material that might not be that intersting? =:)"



susie says, "WebCT kindly provides a tally of all the posts each student reads"



Lennie [to susie]: That's nice



Pat says, "Yes, WebCT makes me feel like 007!"



Lennie says, "I find that synchronous discussions (like this) are a sort of whirlwind.  They are of the moment and there is a lot going on."



Pat says, "Do you do a lot of this kind of discussion in your classes? "



susie says, "I try to head "it was boring" off at the pass. we talk about the different purposes of writing and reading. Their reading for pleasure should  be fun to read. Academic reading might not always be "interesting" but it serves a different purpose. "



Lennie says, "I also find that my subjective sense of the discussion is often very different when I read the transcript in isolation."



Pat says, "Do either of you prefer an online discussion to a f3f one?"



Lennie [to Pat]: As far as my use of chats, I have gone to various extremes.  My natural inclination is to use the sparingly and go for the more controlled and considered asynchronous environment



Pat says, "Ooops! That should be "f2f" Sorry!"



Lennie laughs



Pat says, "I guess this is f3f. =:)"



Lennie [to Pat]: One telling thing for me is that I prefer a face to face conference with students to an online one.



susie (asleep) has disconnected.



Pat says, "What do you find as the limitations of the online environment? I don't find that many!"



Lennie [to Pat]: But if I want to discuss a topic and explore it, the more the better and often the wilder and woolier the better. Whoops... it looks like susie got bumped again.



Lennie says, "Limitations...?"



susie has connected.



Lennie says, "I think that the technology itself sometimes creates a barrier for some students.  That's one."



Pat says, "I know some students just aren't online people, and I have become more savvy as I get questions at the beginning of the semester about my online courses to really ask some hard questions of students wo make sure they choose the delivery method that's best for them."



Lennie says, "I agree.  "



Lennie says, "Welcome  back Susie!"



susie says, "I think my cable box must be wet"



Pat says, "Yes, welcome back!"



susie says, "Thanks"



Lennie says, "I'm with you about few limitations.  I think the ease withwhich students can share text and communicate is a BIG bonus."



Pat says, "How is the support for online learning on your campuses? At mine there is strong support."



Lennie [to Pat]: We have jumped into it in a big way, so there is good support.



susie says, "One of the things that I've found most difficult is to get students to engage in real discussion. If I say in the assigment a minimum of 3 posts per week, that's all they do. No one really gets into it as I hoped they might. "



Lennie says, "Ah Susie.  You prompt me for my next Talking point!"



susie says, "We've got great support also."



Lennie displays slide #8 on Web:



  Talking Point 3

"...if online writing tasks and discussion assignments are designed with those strengths and limitations in mind..."Let's talk about designing asynchronous "e-discussions" with these strengths and limitations in mind.  What might such asynchronous "e-discussions" look like?  What are we as teachers after with such assignments (how do such assignments reflect the strengths and limitations of the environment)? What's our pedagogical intent?  



susie aims to please



Lennie says, "How do we get them engaged in asynchronous discussions."



Lennie says, "I use asynchronous a lot for peer response which is not really a class discussion, but they get very engaged in peer response."



Pat says, "For students sitting in an actual classroom and working online, the problem I have is variety. They don't really want to spend every minute of every class period typing to each other online. So I've tried to mix it up quite a bit with some small group work, whole class regular discussions, and I've even worked in a nature walk/poetry reading for my developmental writing class. "



Lennie says, "I agree with the variety aspect."



Lennie says, "I like the idea of mixing large group with small group."



susie (asleep) has disconnected.



Lennie says, "Whoops, she's off again."



Lennie says, "I have one distance ed class (Developmental English II) and I have them in a weekly discussion board where they post one message and then reply to four of the posts of their peers."



susie has connected.



Lennie says, "I seem to remember hearing or reading about how that is not a good way to run an asynchronous discussion."



Pat says, "As for getting them engaged, in my classes there's a sense of drama that is built in. They read and write in isolation at first. They can't read what anyyone else has written (including my post) until they have posted their first response (300 words). So if things go well they are usually excited to see "how they did" and what other people thought. It makes for some cool discussions!"



susie says, "hi again. If I get dropped again, I'm giving up. Yea roadrunner. I think it drops me off of those cliffs along with the coyote"



Lennie [to Pat]: Nice drama for the in class computer setting. What about for the distance ed classes.



Lennie  hopes that the roadrunner can hold on.



Lennie [to Pat]: Roadrunner is the name of a high speed internet service here.



susie says, "if it's not too redundant, what are the students writing 300 words about?"



Lennie says, "I have heard that having the required posts turns into a chore, like writing to a certain word length.  It certainly helps to have engaging topics, but..."



susie says, "I hate doing required posts and you're right it is a chore, but some of those kids would lurk the entire semester - just like some students do in the classroom -- and never contribuite at all"



Pat says, "I do that for both. I also have a "Big Nick" Award ceremony that I do for mywriting classes, where each student gets a ballot with 5 or 6 categories ("Best Overall Performance"; "Best Intro"; etc.) and then have a little ceremony with music and food and actual awards. That gets them motivated to read and evalutate student written work critically. Students often often learn things about writing by reading the work of their peers in this way that they could never learn from me (for some reason) no matter how long I talk!"



Lennie agrees with Pat about students learning from each other!  I need to think about this awards ceremony thing.  Do yo do it with each essay?



susie says, "I like the awards idea too. Do the students read all 17 other essays?"



Pat says, "For many of my courses, the posts that students writer in response to readings are the course. I evalutate them periodically on how well that addressed the issues in each text and how successfully they have comunicated their ideas and feelings. If the environment is set up right, this can be very exciting and fun. "



Lennie says, "Here is where we get to the rub--the desire for exposure (get them to read as much as they can) and the reality of the text load (too much for them to get to).  Groups can help fix this."



Lennie says, "I have a colleague who even for a while was getting groups to be competitive with each other.  I suppose this sense of group identity and "mission" can motivate too."



Pat says, "For the Big Nicks (named after my son), I usually pick out 5 or 6 excellent papers and call them the "nominees." Then the students read and assess them. Other times, I have had students read them all and let them nominate individual papers for specific honors. I think it's more worthwhile to have them reading excellent papers, though, so that's generally how I do it now."



susie (asleep) has disconnected.



Lennie [to Pat]: Ahh... I like it.  You have been selective out of the big haystack, plus it points them toward the better examples (from which they hopefully will learn more...).



Pat says, "To Lennie: I usually do the Big Nicks once each semester, toward the middle, when the class has been working for a while and there are some good papers to put up there! =:)"



Lennie says, "I may do that with a set I'm sitting on right now.  I guess I could call them the Big Joes (since my son is named Joe!)"



Pat says, "As for group work, I think that would be a natural fit for our tech writing teachers, dont' you? =:)"



Lennie says, "Projects and such"



Lennie says, "I am going to post one more question because I want us to touch on synchronous discussions too"



Lennie displays slide #9 on Web:



  Talking Point 4

"...if online writing tasks and discussion assignments are designed with those strengths and limitations in mind..."Let's now talk about designing synchronous "e-discussions" with these strengths and limitations in mind. What might such real-time synchronous "e-discussions" assignments look like?  What are we as teachers after with such assignments (how do such assignments reflect the strengths and limitations of the environment)? What's our pedagogical intent here--does it differ? 



Pat says, "Big Joe sounds good!"



Lennie says, "I know we're about out of time..."



Lennie says, "Synchronous discussions can be more hit or miss.  They tend to be multi-threaded and don't often follow a coherent tragectory of thought."



Pat says, "I think real-time could be a lot of fun, but they do tend to get diffuse and the percentage of good work to goofing off is often not very favorable, alas."



Lennie says, "If everyone is engaging in the discussion, it goes all over the place.  "



Lennie says, "I have used synchronous discussion when I want things to be diffuse--speculative"



The housekeeper arrives to cart susie off to bed.



Pat says, "Yes, but once in a while it's fun. We had one at our college a few years ago and we didn't really get enything done but I can still smile about it. It was wild. All over the place."



Lennie says, "I want students to explore the broad range of a possibilities and perspectives"



Lennie says, "I have used it some at the beginning of a paper topic."



Pat says, "Yes, perhaps they work best at that sloppy, generative stage in the writing and thinking process (the beginning)."



Lennie says, "Or perhaps at the end stage where you want them to sloppily come to some conclusion."



Pat says, "Yes, that too!"



Lennie says, "I guess what I like about synchronous discussion is that they can help the student, the individual in the discussion, find some of their own relative meaning."



Lennie says, "I'm sorry we lost Susie..."



Lennie says, "Shall we call it a day?"



Pat says, "No problem! I was delighted to participate. Thank you for thinking of me. I hope to see you at a future NCTE or CCC convention!"



-- End log: Tuesday, November 5, 2002 2:26:26 pm AlaMOO time --