-- Start log: Monday, February 4, 2002 2:09:40 pm AlaMOO time --

Lennie says, "I'm starting up the recorder"
Lennie says, "How about if we start with introductions."
Ann_[Guest] says, "Hi everyone. I'm an adjunct faculty member at San Antonio College and often teach in the computer classroom."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "I'm Sherri Winans, from Whatcom Community College in Bellingham, WA--coming to you from our Writing Center today (and I might need to leave quickly to do some tutoring....)"
Lennie says, "I'm Lennie Irvin. I teach English at San Antonio College. This MOO is my fault..."
susie_[Guest] says, "Hi, I'm SusieCrowson at Del Mar College in Corpus Christi, TX"
Lennie says, "Hi Susie and Sherri!"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "hi"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Steelwool is Maria Garcia, an English teacher at SAC. I chose that alias because sometimes, from my students' reactions, I get the impression that when I grade their papers, they feel as if I've scraped them with steel wool."
susie_[Guest] waves
EricCrump_[Guest] is my actual real name. I'm the chief instigator of Interversity, an online teaching & learning co-operative, an independent teacher, a professional listmom, and general, all-round netrat
liz_[Guest] says, "Hi! I'm Liz Ann (liz) and I also teach English at San Antonio College."
Sherri_[Guest] smiles at Steelwool
Lennie says, "It is great to have all of you here. This is the first 1st Monday @AlaMOO. History in the making."
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Lennie, could we include email addresses in case we need permission to cite later?"
Ann_[Guest] says, "Hi Maria. I thought that was you!"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "swinans@whatcom.ctc.edu"
Lennie says, "Good idea Sherre"
Ann_[Guest] says, "Here's mine: athornto@accd.edu"
Lennie says, "Lennie Irvin Lirvin@accd.edu"
susie_[Guest] says, "scrowson@delmar.edu"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "I'm at ecrump@interversity.org"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Maria Garcia's address: mgarcia@accd.edu"
liz_[Guest] says, "LAguilar@accd.edu"
Lennie says, "Great."
Ann_[Guest] says, "Guess I left off my last name earlier, feeling informal, I suppose. I'm Ann Thornton"
Lennie says, "Dr. Soles, the author should be along to join us. I hope."
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Hi, Eric! Do you have a location on earth?"

Lennie displays slide #3 on Web:
Commenting on Papers
"Students learn more effectively when teacher feedback is positive and encouraging. "Positive and encouraging" does not mean dishonest, nor is it meant to sanction insincere flattery. It means praising what is good about a paper and criticizing what is bad, but doing so constructively."

"Nancy Sommers...found that teacher's comments were often hostile and mean-spirited... assum[ing] the personae of a drill sergeant"--sample comments, "Huh???, Nonsense! Buy a dictionary. This bibliography is a farce. Be precise. Think. Wordy. Awkward. Do more research."

Questions:
Why do English teachers (perhaps us) fall into this tone of "harsh and disrespectful" commenting on our students' papers? What is the cause?

How can we shift our tone of comments to be more "constructive" (particularly in our summative comment at the end of a paper)?
Is a summative feedback comment of 100-150 words on each essay too ideal?

Lennie tiptoes out.
Lennie clicks his heals three times and leaves.
EricCrump_[Guest] [to steelwood]: I'm in my office, right now, which is just off the living room
Ann_[Guest] says, "Lennie, does Dr. Soles know to come to the Great Hall? Do you want me to meet him at the plaza or conference room?"
EricCrump_[Guest] [to steelwood]: oh you mean a town? :-)
Lennie arrives from Conference Center
EricCrump_[Guest] [to steelwood]: champaign illinois
Sherri_[Guest] says, "I like these questions"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Wow. I love the closeness distance can bring. "
Sherri_[Guest] says, "I've thought about the cause of comments like these"
Lennie says, "I think I sometimes get frustrated with students who aren't putting into their work what I am"
Lennie ponders close distance.
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "I have an idea about that: I think roughly 98.3 percent of marginal and summative comments are designed to justify the grade, so if the grade is low to middlin' the comments are likely to be harsher to convince the student that the grade is justified. "
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "something like that"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "I did a little study in my classes years back, and found, to my surprise that 'not putting enough work into the class' was not the main reason for the problems students were having...."
Lennie nods to Eric
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Sometimes I think people respond with what they have learned. I'm not sure our society teaches us to speak kindly to others. "
Ann_[Guest] says, "I remember reading Sommers research before I started teaching and thinking "Good grief! I'd never say anything so rude to my students. But, honestly, I've had moments where I've gotten grumpy enough (and probably tired, too) and just had to stop commenting for a while so I don't say something nasty."
Lennie says, "I think Soles talks about how teachers comment differently at different times of the day and in different places"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "I have, in teh past, felt like I needed to 'justify' the grade by pointing out the problems rather than the strengths of a paper"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "like ERic said"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "The justification theory is enlightening, but the best justification, I've always thought, are facts, not verbal abuse."
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "plus there's a long inglorious tradition in education of mistaking nastiness for rigor. Rigor is worshipped of course, and teachers want to be able to brag about how *tough* they are, so a lot of students get nailed in order for teachers to build up their reputations and self-image "
Lennie says, "Having to justify a grade comes a lot from viewing the piece of writing as a final product."
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "like what Derek said about teachers turning into drill sergeants on paper. "
Lennie says, "Yes"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "Yes, Eric, and if we're assuming that the students didn't work hard enough,and that's the reason for the problems ("problems") in their papers, then we'll judge them more harshly, for the same reasons--same thinking going on (the rigor idea)"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Eric's right, but I like it when a student says about other teachers, He's tough, but fair."
susie_[Guest] worriedly digs back through the stack of essays she just graded
EricCrump_[Guest] [to steelwood]: but are there any facts when it comes to evaluating writing?
Lennie says, "Oddly enough, many students like the "coach" approach."
Lennie says, "I mean like a football coach. Drop and do thirty."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "Some teachers seem to take the 'problems' in a paper personallly, too (I'm working in the Writing Center right now"
liz_[Guest] says, "I don't think that all teachers "fall into this tone of harsh and disrespectful." As a graduate student, I had a professor tape record his personal comments on a cassette tape and give them to each student with the paper. This was a horrible experience, but it challenged me to try harder. "
EricCrump_[Guest] grins at susie
Lennie [to liz_[Guest]]: How was it horrible. Was his tone harsh?
EricCrump_[Guest] [to steelwood]: yeah, tough-but-fair is a worthy goal. it's not my goal, but it's worthy enough. I'm the easiest teacher in the world, or the most difficult, depending on your point of view, but what makes me tough is not that I demand performance but that I don't. heh.
Sherri_[Guest] says, "If I'm thinking I just *taught* how to use quotation marks, and then a student doesn't use them 'correctly,' I'm more likely to get kind of impatient--that shows in the markings, I'm sure"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "In a criteria list to which Soles alludes, a fact would be that a thesis is required, and this draft does not show one yet, the minimum number of major grammar errors is x and this draft bears x+2, etc. all set forth ahead of time."
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "some people have never faced anything so tough as being given freedom and responsibility and authority over their own work. "
Lennie says, "I think Eric hits on a key thing. Who's the author-ity?"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Yes, assuming responsibility for their own success is something new to most students."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "Yes, harsh markings can be used to attempt to reestablish author-ity, right? Ick."
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "I think that what comes with the ability to succeed though, is a clear target at which to aim."
EricCrump_[Guest] [to steelwood]: hmm. sounds like a fact, but I'm always suspicious because I've been in too many "norming" sessions where experienced teachers give the same paper wildly diverse (even contradictory) evaluations. What if you read a paper and think there's no thesis, but I read it and think the thesis is merely weak or subtle or misplaced or implied?
Lennie says, "Soles does mention the importance of giving students direction, how and why to do "it" better."
Lennie says, "So how do we be more "constructive" (rather than destructive)?"
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Sherri_[Guest]]: well, I don't know about that. I'd say tough remarks tend to infringe upon a writer's authority, especially in situations where the teacher holds and wields all the institutional authority.
liz_[Guest] says, "He would start off as if he was having a conversation then he would follow up a numbering system.For example, "Point #1-Liz ann, I think you made good use of the example, but you need to ..." This was o.k. but sometimes he would raise his voice and yell at us. My peers and I would sometimes exchange suggestions or share comments in reference to our prof. grading."
Ann_[Guest] says, "I was surprised at the emphasis in Sholes essay on the summative comments. Mine are probably about 20 words long, no where near 150, but I write lots of marginal comments about structure, organization, the thesis, etc. in addition to pointing out grammatical errors. I never really thought of my approach as unusual. It seems to make sense to make the comment where the student can see an example of what I'm talking about."
Lennie [to liz_[Guest]]: Yikes!
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "students, after all, are not on anything like an even playing field with teacher-readers, not like writers and editors in the real world. Teachers have all the power."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "One of the things that's helping me is to open up the dialogue with the students more, partly in online communication (in addition to face-to-face. The better I know them, the better I can communicate with them in my comments on their work"
Sherri_[Guest] [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: I didn't mean that: I meant that the teacher is in some cases trying to reassert his/her atuhority (inappropriately, of course)
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Yes, but in teaching an Internet class, I've loaded files that descrobe amd define a thesis, tell what it's not, call for its unambiguous presence, and provide enough examples so that the student who can only read what I write has a chance. In that setting, it works. I can appreciate the limitations of this approach, though, and the ambiguities that other settings may bring."
EricCrump_[Guest] [to liz_[Guest]]: interesting phrase there: "as if he were having a conversation". hnmm. how bout dropping the 'as if' and just have a conversation between writer and teacher?
Lennie says, "One of the things I try to do is to be observational in my comments and then have students do peer response where they are observers. This tends to empower them as they learn better what to "see.""
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Sherri_[Guest]]: that sounds like a great idea to me. it's what I try to do too
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Sherri_[Guest]]: oic what you mean
Sherri_[Guest] says, "It's just naturally happening more all the time, as I've been using an online supplement in the face-to-face classes"
Lennie says, "I like the dialogue idea. Doesn't it take lots of time?"
EricCrump_[Guest] [to steelwood]: I see. Yeah, if the appropriate form is prescribed in detail, I guess you can say more definitely whether orders have been followed, etc.
Sherri_[Guest] [to Lennie]: Well, I've had more time lately, as I've got some release time for online work--but still, it's not a LOT more time really
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "My summative comments are from 20-30 words long, too, as are Ann Marie's, and they really are summative - I note what works well and list the major areas that need revising in these five areas -- thesis, specifics, grammar, MLA, and coherence, but not in those terms."
Sherri_[Guest] [to Lennie]: I can flip through pretty quickly and read and occasionally respond to the students' posts
Lennie says, "I'm going to move on to our second point. OK?"

Lennie displays slide #4 on Web:
Insist Students Reflect upon Written Comments
One of the most intriguing aspects of the article, I found, was Dr. Sole's discussion about insisting students read our comments. I had always taken it as a given that they would review my comments, but we can find ways to make sure they review our comments.

From the article: "One strategy is to ask students, immediately after they have received their graded papers, to make two lists, one of which describes three weaknesses in the papers, according to the teacher's comments, and the other of which describes three strengths. The teacher then asks the students to put a star beside the one weakness and the one strength they consider most significant. Next, the teacher goes around the room and asks each student to read out the weakness he or she listed"(124).
Questions:
What do you think of the importance of insisting students reflect upon our comments?
And What are some other types of techniques you might have used to accomplish this goal?

Lennie says, "Do any of you have a method for getting students to review your comments?"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "The value is that making them comment will make them look, so I'm sure it works."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "I've asked students to respond to three or four of my markings, on a separate sheet of paper, in the past"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "I gotta say I'm very skeptical about the usefulness of *insisting* on reflection. I'm not sure any actual, productive reflection is likely to occur on command. "
Sherri_[Guest] says, "For a while, I used a form I'd written up for this purpose"
susie_[Guest] says, "I like this idea. I've always asked the students to write a self-evaluation so they can can what they think they did really well, but now I'm going to add to that a rquest for a reply to my comments"
Lennie says, "I remember for a couple of semesters I had my students keep an error log. I dropped that one though..."
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "better, I reckon, to make comments that are provocative, that capture students' attention and elicit a response. I mean, if we're writing teachers surely we're good enough writers to engage students' interest without resort to coercion?"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Well, at the risk of sounding like a wuss, I've got to say that at the beginning of the semester, I tell my students that they may revise one essay for a higher grade. Then we go over the process -- take the draft I marked, make the correction, cross if off on the draft, and when you finish, print out the corrected FINAL draft and turn both in - the one I marked and the one showing the corrections. That's how I know that they looked."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "Anybody ever seen a paper that's been written on by a student AFTER the instructor has commented on it? I have, on occasion, had the chance to view a paper I've marked after a student has gone in and responded directly to my markings--very interesting"
Lennie says, "I'll bet."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "They have asked questions in response to my questions and written 'WHAT?' after one of my markings, etc."
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Sherri_[Guest]]: that's cool! you musta done good on that one!
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Sherri, I'm sure you saw some suggestions for revision, right :-)?"
Lennie [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: I must philosophically agree with your view about inspiring students, but the reality is that most of them would not do most of the work if we didn't "assign" (coerce) them to do it.
susie_[Guest] says, "I have to coerce my students"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "One of my favorites was a student marking a paper like me, spoofing my markings--all of the questions, etc.... I'm really glad he showed it to me. I still laugh about that one."
Ann_[Guest] says, ""I ask my students to comment on what they think the strengths and weaknesses are of their essays as they submit them, and for my final exam for Freshman Comp I I ask them to write about what they've learned during the semester, giving examples from their essays throughout the semester. But otherwise I've not really asked them to reflect or comment on my comments. And sometimes I'm not sure that they really read back over all their essays and my comments in preparation for the final exam."
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Lennie]: I know, but that says something about the work, not about the students :-)
Lennie [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: maybe...
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "I like the goal of inspiration, too, and think of it as the sugar that makes the medicine go down."
susie_[Guest] says, "Most of them do very little that they don't think will influence their grade. I don't get any English majors in my classes though"
liz_[Guest] says, "Ann, "
Lennie says, "The one thought I had about Sole's excellent classroom activity idea was that it would take class time."
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "One of the last questions on a quiz is to look over the essays and ask what changed in the writing process. I get the usual you would expect, but also some that ring true."
Lennie says, "I squeeze so much in already, but I can see how this would be a really good way to reinforce the "learning goals" of an assignment."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "Another thing I've tried is having a class period focused on revision on the day I pass back the essays: I've invited a Writing Center tutor into the classroom--and both of us wander around the classroom answering questions and asking questions"
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Lennie]: maybe? I think coercion is one of those self-justifying practices. We make kids do stuff they don't want to do, and when they resist or do a half-assed job, we hold that up as evidence that we must coerce them some more or they won't do the stuff we coerce them to do.
Lennie [to Sherri_[Guest]]: Good idea! I've done some sneaky things like that to get them to revise.
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "The problem, of course, is the coercion, not the kids, not really even the work we ask them to do. "
liz_[Guest] says, "Ann, I like the idea of evaluating the essays throughout the semester and having the students reflect and explain what they have learned. I think I may try this out with some journal entries."
Sherri_[Guest] [to Lennie]: and the activitiy for that class period might be to get them to respond to my comments on their work
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Sherri, the writing tutor's presence reinforces everything, I'm sure. That's a great idea."
EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: I don't blame them, either
Lennie [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: You are absolutely right!
Lennie says, "On to talking point #3?"

Lennie displays slide #5 on Web:
Establish Clear Evaluative Criteria and Share Them with Students
"Grading supports teaching if teachers establish clear evaluative criteria they willuse to judge student writing and share those criteria with their students. Indeed, research suggests a positive correlation between a student's knowledge of evaluative criterial and the grade the student gets on an essay to which those evaluative criteria are applied"

Question:
What are some ways you have found to be effective in communicating evaluation criteria to your students? How, if you use them, do you use grading rubrics?

How do we get students to "own the criteria [we use] to evaluate their written work?"

Sherri_[Guest] says, "One of our Writing Center tutors is going to peek in on our conversation now"
Lennie [to Sherri_[Guest]]: Great
susie_[Guest] says, " Own the criteria? can they own it if they don't set it?"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "best thing I ever did in terms of getting students to understand criteria was to let them create 'em"
Lennie tiptoes out.
Lennie clicks his heals three times and leaves.
EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: they can own it if they make it, and if they make it, they'll likely undersatnd it
Adams_Guest arrives from Conference Center
Lennie arrives from Conference Center
susie_[Guest] says, "It's even fun when the students make the criteria, but sometimes they're harder on themselves than I would be"
Lennie waves to Adams guest
Ann_[Guest] says, "Eric, how did their criteria compare to what you had used previously?"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "what I provided was the global context, the institutional goals we were expected to meet and the department's recommendations for how to meet them. Then as a group we created criteria for specific tasks"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Since right now, I'm just doing Internet, I've put the descriptions/definitions for the major criteria - thesis, specifics, grammar, mla, and coherence - in a web page. There's also a page on using the computer's search function to find your own and commonly-appearing errors."
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Ann_[Guest]]: pretty close. probably more reasonable. certainly what the students came up with s
Lennie says, "I have done collaborative rubrics with students, and invariably, I end up adding in items that the students are leaving out. "
susie_[Guest] [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: Absolutely. I think it is good for them to recognize that they can make good judgemnts. Sometimes they've had so many drill sargeants that they're pretty tough on themselves though
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "I've always enjoyed criteria-setting, but I'm not sure they own it any more than they do when it's set for them."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "I use a pretty basic rubric"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "oops. what they came up with proved to me that they really did understand the goals for the course but they were better able to incorporate them into their work when the criteria were composed by them rather than by me"
susie_[Guest] says, "They don't own it because it's false. They have to trust that you relly mean it that they are helping set standards"
Lennie says, "One way I have helped students become familiar with criteria is to use the same basic criteria in peer evaluation of drafts that I will use of their more-polished draft."
Ann_[Guest] says, ""That's interesting. I guess I've gotten input, or let them establish criteria for smaller projects, but not for essays. I think about that."
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "we teachers sometimes subject students to the most inscrutable instructions, things that we think are most clear and concise"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "One of the things I've been trying to do is focus more on the whole class's writing--open up the community more--so that they see how others are doing and have a better understanding of what all of them expect of *each other's* work"
Ann_[Guest] says, "Whoops. My last comment was directed to Eric. Sorry for the confusion;"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "I've been guilty of that lots of times. I finally figured out I just need to shut up and let them say it. they say it fine"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "So we've now got lots of students' essays online, published to my faculty pages, and we use those as we talk about writing and our own ideas"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "That kind of helps students see the expectations better, but we haven't gotten to the point where we're really creating a new rubric or something, based on those and our own essays...."
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Eric, don't mean to be rude, but how could you tell that "they were better able to "
Lennie [to Sherri_[Guest]]: I like your use of student essays. Do you have any commentary on these essays based on some criteria?
Sherri_[Guest] [to Lennie]: my commentary, you mean?
Sherri_[Guest] [to Lennie]: or other students' commentary?
Lennie [to Sherri_[Guest]]: Not necessarily. I was just thinking that reviewing essays evaluated with the criteria apparent might be another way for them to become familiar with the criteria. Both maybe.
Sherri_[Guest] [to Lennie]: yes, I like it
EricCrump_[Guest] [to steelwood]: I assume you mean 'better able to understand the criteria'? because I had fewer students who asked questions about what they were supposed to do and why. and the results indicated that they *got it* --that is, their work was closer to what I expected when I let them articulate the expectations than when I insisted on articulating them
Lennie says, "Do any of you use rubrics to frame your comments and grades when you return an essay?"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "weird huh? makes perfect sense now that I've done it"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Thanks for the clarification. That experience sounds really great."
Lennie [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: Inductive learning rather than deductive.
susie_[Guest] [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: Do you have lots of questions at first and then they slow down?
Sherri_[Guest] says, "I do use a rubric--it's pretty basic. I revise it constantly, but I am sure I could do a better job of clarifying it for the students."
EricCrump_[Guest] nods Lennie
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "As a student, I would appreciate knowing what the criteria are ahead of time. A clear target is easier to hit than a blurry one."
Lennie says, "We'd better move on to point 4..."

Lennie displays slide #6 on Web:
Grading Drafts--grading with different hats; Formative vs Summative feedback

Question:
Don't we grade differently if we are grading a piece of writing as a final product vs a piece of writing in process? How do we deal with "error" differently in these cases?

Quote from article: "An error is not simply a mistake; it is a clue to the writer's actual intention. If we can decode the error, we can understand more clearly the writer's purpose and offer better advice on how to improve the final product."

EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: you mean per assignment or per semester?
susie_[Guest] [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: per semester.
Sherri_[Guest] squints at teh topic of error
Lennie says, "Soles discussion of error as not simply a mistake reminded me of Mina Shanessey's thoughts on error."
Lennie hands Sherri a pair of glasses.
EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: it seems to me questions come faster & furiouser at the beginnings of semesters, but once students come to believe they actually have authority over their own work and can make decisions that matter, and once they've got a fair idea what the institutional expectations are, they become much more independent of me
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "At this late stage, I consider all of them works in progress. You've heard it said that a work is never really finished."
susie_[Guest] [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: It seems that when the students really get it that you're not going to tell them how many papragraphs to write and count off when they don't do it, that the questions slow down for me. The beginning of each semsester is Losts of questions
susie_[Guest] says, "or lots of lost questions."
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "The questions change in nature as well as frequency. Once they have the reins, the questions seems deeper."
EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: yeah, and that makes sense, too. They are probing, trying to discover the nature of the terrain in each class, trying to figure out what expectations are, what they will have to do, what they can get away with, etc. In a few weeks, most of that stuff has beeen addressed
Ann_[Guest] says, ""One thing that has worked for me in trying to figure out what students' intentions are is to have them write an informal journal entry about the process of writing their essay. Often I find that I understand their intentions better that way. It has also opened my eyes in cases where I suspected that the student was slacking off, when in fact, they were simply struggling. "
susie_[Guest] [to Steelwool_[Guest]]: I think the students can set the criteria and know the criteria. Some of them don't know what to write because they think they don't know what I want them to write.
Lennie says, "Doesn't "decoding the error" take lots of work often? But I've found that many times that understanding where a student is coming from is the first step in giving them "constructive" feedback--summative or formative."
Sherri_[Guest] [to Ann_[Guest]]: yes, that's another way to open up that dialogue with students--so that you can communicate more effectively when marking
Lennie [to Ann_[Guest]]: Marie I like your idea of a sort of preface to the essay. ...an apologia
Lennie [to Ann_[Guest]]: I guess you could ask them to comment themselves on how well they met the "criteria" of the assignment.
susie_[Guest] says, "One of the first pieces I ask my students to write is what they've learned from school about making mistakes."
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Wow, Susie, that question has so much potential!"
Lennie nods to Susie
Sherri_[Guest] says, "I've cut way back on my marking of error--am still trying to find ways to communicate effectively about this subject"
susie_[Guest] says, "Most don't see mistakes or errors as learning opportunities"
Ann_[Guest] says, "to Lennie "I think that would probably be eye-opening for me and the students."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "that's why I was squinting when I read the term error"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "difficult topic for me still"
Lennie says, "How about this one. What have they learned about making successes?"
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Ann_[Guest]]: I like that idea, too. I asked students to do that for their portfolios last semester and it worked well. The writing in the portfolio introductions was the best some of them had done all semester
EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: and what do they generally say?
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Hats off to you, Lennie. Great question."
EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: i suspected as much.
Lennie [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: Did you give them any direction for their portfolio preface?
EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: I give a short speech at the beginning of semesters: I expect you all to make mistakes. I make mistakes all the time. Make mistakes early and often. You won't learn a bloody thing if you don't make mistakes!
susie_[Guest] says, " to EricCrump They talk about the big red Xs they get on papers and corrections. They mention quite often that the teacher never explains to them how the eror should be corrected"
Sherri [Guest] . o O ( yikes! big red X's! )
Lennie says, "We are down to our last five minutes or so."
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Lennie]: only very general ones: I said the preface should give the body of their work some context, that they should imagine they are explaining this collection of writings to someone who *wasn't* in our class, that they should try to explain what they did and what they learned and why it matters
Lennie nods to Eric. Sounds good.

Lennie displays slide #8 on Web:
Closing Comments and Last Words?

Thanks for attending the first 1stMonday @AlaMOO

Next March 4th we can look forward to a discussion with Michael Day about teaching web-writing (or writing in an electronic media).

Email Lennie Irvin (Lirvin@accd.edu) for a copy of this session.

EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: yeah, we ought to all adopt Ms. Frizzle's motto: "Take chances! Make mistakes! Get messy" (you can learn a lot from watching the Magic Schoolbus :-)
Sherri_[Guest] [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: yes!
Adams_Guest has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Adams_Guest.
Lennie raises a hollar for Ms. Frizzle!
susie_[Guest] says, "Here's one from this semester "School has taught me if there is a mistake just cross it out and revise it. you can improve. that can also be applied to life"
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "See you next time!"
EricCrump_[Guest] grins at Lennie
liz_[Guest] says, "This was my first time on Alamoo, I enjoyed it!"
Lennie says, "Thanks to all of you for attending!"
Sherri_[Guest] [to Lennie]: So glad I was able to make it--it's not busy in the WRiting Center today
susie_[Guest] says, "Yeah Ms. Frizzle"
Lennie says, "Just let me know if you want a transcript and I'll email you the link."
Ann_[Guest] says, "Thanks, Lennie. See y'all next time."
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "by the way, if anybody's interested in more talk about grading..."
Ann_[Guest] says, "yes,...."
Sherri_[Guest] [to Lennie]: Please email me the link--oh, I think you already did?
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "I have a discussion list on the subject. Of course, it's mainly focused on getting RID of grading..."
EricCrump_[Guest] grins
Sherri_[Guest] says, "GET RID OF GRADING!"
Lennie says, "How do we join it Eric?"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "ungrading@interversity.org"
Sherri_[Guest] smiles
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "you can subscribe by sending email to majordomo@interversity.org and in the message body put: subscribe ungrading"
Lennie [to EricCrump_[Guest]]: Does it get much traffic?
susie_[Guest] says, "I'll check it out. The only thing I hate worse than grading is grades."
Sherri_[Guest] says, "Got to go"
Sherri_[Guest] says, "Thanks, Lennie!"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "or go to http://www.interversity.org/lists/ungrading/"
Lennie waves bye to Sherri
EricCrump_[Guest] [to Lennie]: it's been quiet of late, but it springs to life now and again
EricCrump_[Guest] [to susie_[Guest]]: good for you!
Sherri_[Guest] has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Sherri_[Guest].
Ann_[Guest] says, "Thanks, Eric."
Ann_[Guest] says, "Bye"
EricCrump_[Guest] says, "yeah, good session, Lennie. Nice job on the slides"
susie_[Guest] says, "Bye everyone. "
Lennie says, "Yeah Eric. Glad you could make it."
Lennie waves bye to everyone
Steelwool_[Guest] says, "Sound good, Eric, I'll check it out. Copied address into Notepad."

-- End log: Monday, February 4, 2002 3:02:02 pm AlaMOO time --

Ann_[Guest] has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Ann_[Guest].