-- Start log: Monday, March 3, 2003 2:06:50 pm AlaMOO time --

Welcome to the March 2003 Edition of
1stMondays@AlaMOO

Today's Topic
The Useful Art of Chatting: Real-time Synchronous Discussions and Learning

 Lennie displays slide #2 on Web:  <http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/3-03/slideb.htm>.



  Lennie says, "Welcome to AlaMOO and 1stMondays"



  Lennie says, "I am Lennie Irvin from San Antonio College. Lirvin@accd.edu"



  Madison_Guest says, "John Horner, at  San Antonio College"



  Lennie displays slide #3 on Web:  <http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/3-03/slidec.htm>.Lennie  pats John on the back for finally making a session in AlaMOO.KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "Ken Schweller, at Buena Vista University, Storm Lake IA - schweller@bvu.edu"Garry_Partridge_[Guest] says, "I am Garry Partridge, SAC English Dept.



  Lennie displays slide #4 on Web:  <http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1stMondays/3-03/slided.htm>.Lennie says, "OK here we go"Lennie displays slide #5 on Web:

Talking Point 1
Description and DefinitionLet's begin our discussion by attempting to describe and define as best we can what a "chat" (a real-time synchronous discussion) is like. What are its general characteristics and traits? How might we contrast an electronic discussion with a traditional class discussion?   Lennie says, "I had thought that this would be an interesting discussion because we are talking about what we are doing..."Lennie says, "E-discussions tend to be more raukus (sp?), fast-paced, and fragmented."



  Lennie says, "they also tend to get a lot more student involvment.  I am shocked at the number of messages I can get out of a class in a twenty-five minute time period."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "Maintaining conversational coherence is perhaps the biggest challenge in online chat situations.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "Competing conversational threads emerge continuously to the consternation of inexperienced users.."



  Lennie says, " they also are all in writing rather than oral"



  Lennie  nods in agreement to Ken



  Lennie says, "I've also experienced sometimes but not often some competition and conflict in these kinds of discussions, but not often."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "Novice users often feel they have entered the cyberspace equivalent of the Tower of Babel.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] laughs\



  Lennie says, "Yes.  A silent Babel."



  Lennie says, "OK, this is a start. Now on to Topic #2"



  Garry_Partridge_[Guest] says, "sorry folks I have to go--Garry"



  Lennie displays slide #6 on Web:

Talking Point 2Heteroglossia and Bakhtin
Bakhtin's notions of "heteroglossia" and language have been very influencial in making sense of electronic discourse. This slide and the next summarize some of these views:Heteroglossia defined (from The Bakhtin Reader by Pam Morris):
Bakhtin points out, in ancient Rome and during the Renaissance. "Heteroglossia" (the Russian "raznorechie" literally means "different-speech-ness"), refers to the conflict between "centripetal" and "centrifugal," "official" and "unofficial" discourses within the same national language. "Heteroglossia" is also present, however at the (q.v.) micro-linguistic scale; every utterance contains within it the trace of other utterances, both in the past and in the future. The discursive site in which the conflict between different voices is at its most concentrated is the modern novel (q.v.). ...and one more slide Garry_Partridge_[Guest] has disconnected.



  The housekeeper arrives to remove Garry_Partridge_[Guest].



  Lennie waves to Garry



  Lennie says, "I hate to bring up Bakhtin, but so may people point to him when talking about electronic discourse."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "holy moly... "



  Madison_Guest has disconnected.



  The housekeeper arrives to remove Madison_Guest.



  Lennie says, "It looks like we lost Garry and John.  John is in class right now, but someone else just connected."



  Adams_Guest arrives from Conference Center



  Adams_Guest quietly enters.



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "oh well... I am holding office hours so I am fading in and out as I talk with students.."



  Lennie waves to Adams_guest



  Lennie says, "We are just talking about Bakhtin!"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "of whom I know very little "



  Lennie says, "I recall being around the Daedalus folks from UT-Austin in the late eighties, and they talked and talked about heteroglossia as a way to describe this kind of environment"



    Lennie displays slide #7 on Web:

Talking Point 2 Continued
More on Bakhtin and Heteroglossia
As Lee Honeycutt notes in "What Hath Bakhtin Wrought? Toward a Unified Theory of Literature and Composition," Bakhtin's notion of heteroglossia is "perhaps one of Bakhtin's most misunderstood and misinterpreted ideas." Applied to the new context of electronic discourse, Bakhtin's notions serve as useful metaphors for understanding. Here is a summary of how Lester Faigley applied Bakhtin's ideas in Fragments of Rationality:

How useful, then, can we say are Bakhtin's ideas for understanding electronic discourse? Where do they fit and not fit? Lennie says, "More Bakhtin."



  Lennie says, "Perhaps this will make more sense."



  Adams_Guest has disconnected.



  The housekeeper arrives to remove Adams_Guest.



  guest_Guest arrives from Conference Center



  guest_Guest quietly enters.



  Lennie waves to guest



  Lennie says, "his terms monologic describe a teachers centered environment."



  Lennie says, "Faigley described the typical teacher-led discussion as going from Initiation to Reply to Evaluation.  Teacher--student--teacher"



  Lennie says, "In a chat, of course, the teacher isn't at the center of things."



  Lennie says, "I like the Bakhtinian terms multiplicity to describe the many voices that are able to participate more easily in a chat."



  Lennie says, "Idealist at first also thought this kind of online discussion would lead to a more egalitarian learning environment with different power structures than in a traditional classroom."



  guest_Guest says, "but in a teacher-initiated chat room, isn't the teacher kind of god-like, omnipotent, if not actively participating?  Which seems to me transmogrifies the students into robots or puppets, tied to the assignment."



  Lennie says, "As Susan Romano pointed out in her study, this egaliatarian ideal doesn't play out"



  Lennie [to guest_Guest]: Yes. The teacher can certainly still "control" even an online discussion.



  Lennie says, "Just as I am trying to guide this discussion with my "Talking Points.""



  guest_Guest says, "so you're not just oz, you're god.  "



  KenSchweller_[Guest] worries about being caught in the Initiation-Reply-Evaluation trap... so shuts up



  Lennie laughs



  KenSchweller_[Guest] laffs



  Lennie says, "But isn't any teacher playing "god" to a degree?"



  Lennie [to KenSchweller_[Guest]]: I think that the notion of "uncertainty" points to what you mentioned earlier--these discussions are often multi-threaded and move so fast that no "closure" happens.



  guest_Guest says, "can you say a little more about Romano and how she fits in or doesn't with Mr. B.?"



  Lennie says, "I find in a traditional class discussion I might have certain points I want to cover with my students, but in an online discussion I don't have as definite of end points"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "I think if Socrates held his Forum in cyberspace we would never have had the notion of a Socratic dialogue spinning inwardly ever more surely to the quiet center of 'truth'... we would spinning out into perplexity..."



  Lennie [to guest_Guest]: Susan examined some of the notions of "egalitarianism"--equality between students and students and students and teacher



  Lennie [to guest_Guest]: She pretty much found out that to a degree students were more "equal" but the power relationships did not go away. They might shift online.



  Lennie [to guest_Guest]: Certainly the shy quiet student, the minority student, may speak up more



  guest_Guest says, "does the comment on Socrates function as a criticism of B. in this Moo, or a negative remark about Chats?"



  Lennie [to guest_Guest]: I think it is a comment about chats .



  Lennie [to guest_Guest]: The discussions do tend to spin outward.



  guest_Guest says, "well maybe I better get back to the uncertain and the perplexed.  Thanks for the opportunity to Moo."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] nods..



  Lennie waves to guest. Who are you?



  Lennie says, "On to the next point..."



    Lennie displays slide #8 on Web:



Talking Point 3
From Theory to Praxis
from Gregory Clark's Dialogue, Dialectic, and Conversation:
"Bakhtin's work provides perhaps our most comprehensive explanation of the process through which social knowledge is constructed in a cooperative exchange of texts. However diverse its particular applications, Bakhtin's explanation persistently and explicitly affirms the two complementary assumptions about language that support a social constructionist point of view: that our language creates rather than conveys our reality . . . and that it does so in a process that is collaborative rather than individual . . . . (8-9) (qtd. in Honeycutt)Let's share some instances when you might have used a "chat" and it was a success in terms of learning and the goals for your course--what made it work and how does this example of "praxis" fit the theory? Lennie [to KenSchweller_[Guest]]: In terms of Bakhtin for composition and rhetoric, this quote sums up his value pretty well.



  KenSchweller_[Guest] nods..... is, unfortunately, talking to students and answering phone on and off...



  Lennie says, "I find that chats go really well when I want students to explore an idea, debate various interpretations--more open ended type of discussions."



  Lennie  nods to Ken



  Lennie says, "I have used them well at the beginning of a writing assignment and I want then to explore the general "terrain" of a subject."



  Lennie says, "In these cases, there doesn't need to be a great deal of "coherence" to the discussion.  "



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "chats work very well with experienced users who 'want' it to work... it can fail or be easily sabotaged by even one passive aggressive participant who wants to show its weakeness..."



  Lennie  agrees



  KenSchweller_[Guest] farts to make a point..



  Lennie  laughs



  Lennie  farts as he laughs



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "sheesh.."



  Lennie says, "I think our friend may still be here?"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "and the natural tendency of chat rooms is toward the Hilarity of the Improbable.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "and given half a chance.... whoosh!"



  Lennie  laughs



  Lennie says, "You know, I haven't experienced as much laughter and play in chat sessions.  Some."



  Lennie says, "But I think I started my "chatting" in Daedalus rather than in MOO, so I didn't cut my teeth on this hilarity of MOO"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "that too, is subtly directed by the leader.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] nods...



  Lennie says, "Daedalus is just flat"



  Lennie says, "MOO is three dimensional"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] -- off to phone..



  Lennie  flies his kite around the room



  Lennie nods



  Lennie says, "I have also been using chats a lot more for discussions of readings in a Freshman Comp II class"



  Lennie says, " over literature texts."



  Lennie says, "I find that I can actually "cover" a lot more about a text and get more genuinely insightful interpretations about a text with chats."



  Lennie says, "We are still left at the end feeling, "What happened? What was important?""



  Lennie says, "Real-time synchronous discussions are experienced rather than observed."



  Lennie displays slide #9 on Web:



    Talking Point 4

When it flopsLet's share instances when the online discussion did not work--it flopped. What happened and why do you think it didn't work? Years ago we used to refer to the "Interchange Ghetto" (from the chat feature in Daedalus) to describe the breakdown of a chat into what we might kindly call "non-pedagogically useful" discussions. Have you experienced this ghetto? How do you avoid it? When might the "ghetto" actually be useful? (Can we find a better metaphor than the "ghetto" to describe it?)   Lennie says, "Sometimes students just lose all sense of what is normally appropriate behavior face to face when they get online."



  Lennie says, "Much of it is a kind of showing off."



  Lennie says, "If the teacher has not set the discussion up well with a clear topic for discussion, who knows where it will go?"



  Lennie says, "I haven't experienced this myself, but I know a colleague who had a number of students who has such a large conflict that anytime they got online to discuss it turned almost into a shouting match."



  Lennie says, "I think the controversy was between "witchcraft" as a religion and a fundamentalist.  Even though the topic obliquely touched on witchcraft, they tore into each other."



  Lennie says, "At this point, if the disruptive discussion continues, you have to get them out of the discussion (perhaps into their own private chat room to duke it out)."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "back again...  I developed several 'classroom' objects...some are in the Moo Core .. for mediating disucussions... these help to a degree.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] grins..



  Lennie says, "Very interesting.  How do you mediate a discussion?"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "at least they can't physically hurt themselves in cyberspace.."



  Lennie says, "True."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "well, the 'generic classroom' has furniture..."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "like desks, tables, chairs etc.."



  Lennie  throws a couch at Ken



  Lennie says, "So people could get in different groups"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "people in, say, Row 1, can be heard by each other but not by people in other rows.,."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "they can chat to themselves and joke and mock while participating in the discussion and not being heard by others.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] ducks... with all the speed Lag allows..



  Lennie says, "Yes.  I have found that interesting.  It almost feels naughty to have that sort of under conversation."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "also, I usually use the room's built in blackboard or other tool to keep track of discussion points.."



  Lennie says, "All participants can see the blackboard"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] nods



  Lennie says, "What do you think of the web projector serving as this kind of blackboard"



  Lennie says, "for guiding a discussion?"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "yup, when I designed the web projector I did not think of it as a controlling or mediating tool... just a vanilla presentation device... but I use more as you do now.."



  Lennie says, "You could still have the generic classroom mediation furniture and the web projector.  Can you record the different conversations for each different group (I mean piece of furniture)?"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "interesting idea!!"



  Lennie says, "or does the recorder gather all the discussion no matter what group?"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "of course, each person in a row could record what s/he hears.. "



  Lennie says, "or just the surface discussion?"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "but you could have recording 'channels' to record some or all...."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "its not a technology, just a design, problem.."



  Lennie says, "Channels. Wow."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] laffs about 'eavesdropping chairs'



  Lennie says, "I know we are almost out of time.  ONe last slide..."



    Lennie displays slide #10 on Web:

Talking Point 5

The need for reflection
The quick and fragmented nature of electronic conversations with their inherent lack of "closure" seems to cry out for reflection upon and review of the transcripts of these discussions. In what ways have you used transcripts? How have you gotten students to reflect upon and use these transcripts for learning? Any tricks? KenSchweller_[Guest] watches



  Lennie says, "I am very interested in "reflection" as a mediating act for learning."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "I am too...."



  Lennie says, "Do you have students review transcripts?"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "an unreflected transcript is not worth the screen it was illumenesced on..."



  Lennie says, "Bravo"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "I have my students do serious editing and commenting..."



  Lennie says, "What kind of editing?"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "the final products are usually quite good.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "cutting, moving snippets of conversation to where they logically belong.. removing farts, burps, waves etc..."



  Lennie says, "So they need to create a "coherent" piece from the transcript."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "adding editorial comments.."



  Lennie nods



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "right, its an act of creation.."



  Lennie says, "I haven't had my students do this much with transcripts, but I think I will try it."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "it's also a quick way to brainstorm ideas..."



  Lennie says, "I have required them to include quotes from peers to include in a paper."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "get em out fast with everybody shopping... reorganize at leisure.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "good idea!"



  Lennie agrees.



  Lennie says, "It is a little startling at first to seem them quoting each other like they were experts or something."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "ownership breeds civil discourse.."



  Lennie says, "Yes"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "Also recording transcripts and posting them to the web.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "gives added ownership"



  Lennie  nods



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "and publication like experience..."



  Lennie says, "So they see their own words on the web"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "many students do not feel they have to 'own' their words.."



  Lennie says, "You know with MOO, this publishing happens instantaneously."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "we  them to their discursive past.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] laffs



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "yes, even this dialog, with a little editing, will seem brilliant..."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] laffs



  Lennie says, "Well the hour is past, shall we call it? Brilliant, perhaps..."



    Lennie displays slide #12 on Web:  

Thanks for coming!

Thanks for attending another 1stMondays@AlaMOOThe link to the transcript of this session will be sent to today's participants in the next couple days (if you shared your email address).Works CitedFaigley, Lester. Fragments of Rationality: Postmodernity and the Subject of Composition. Pittsburg: U Pittsburgh P, 1992.
Honeycutt, Lee. "What Hath Bakhtin Wrought? Toward a Unified Theory of Literature and Composition." 1994. 1 March 2003. <http://www.public.iastate.edu/~honeyl/bakhtin/thesis.html>.
Morris, Pam. The Bakhtin Reader. Oxford University Press, 1997. KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "before I became a computer scientist I was a computational psycholinguist... my dissertion was on speech act theory.."



  Lennie says, "I'm sorry the attendance at this one was kind of a dud"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] laffs



  Lennie says, "I used to be very interested in speech act.  "



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "thanks for a good time.."



  Lennie says, "It fits that you would become interested in MOO"



  Lennie says, "I really appreciate the chance to talk with you.  "



  Lennie says, "Thank you!"



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "right.. computers, AI, psychology and linguistics.. rolled into one.."



  KenSchweller_[Guest] says, "its been great talking with you!"



  Lennie says, "Same here.  Take care!"



    -- End log: Monday, March 3, 2003 3:05:09 pm AlaMOO time --