3-04log
-- Start log: Monday, March 4, 2002 12:40:56 pm AlaMOO time --

Welcome to the March 2002 Edition of
1stMondays@AlaMOO

Today's Topic
A discussion of the characteristics and issues involved of a "web- writing" class taught by English Departments.

Introductions

Before we get started, please send a brief message telling everyone here who you are and where you are from.

Also, you might include your email address to assist any others who wish to follow up the discussion at a later time.

We are happy, priviledged, honored (and darn right tickled pink) to have Michael Day as our special participant and sage for this discussion.

Dr. Michael Day is Assistant Professor of English in the Department of English at Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Illinois. Author of many articles and prolific presenter at conferences in the field of Computers and Writing, Michael has also taught a course for a number of years entitled, "Writing for Electronic Media." It is as an experienced teacher of a "web-writing" class that Michael has joined us today.

royal_[Guest] is Royal Bonde-Griggs, St. Cloud State University, boro0001@stcloudstate.edu
Lennie displays slide #4 on Web:
<http://www.accd.edu/sac/english/lirvin/MOOstuff/1st3-01-02/3-01d.htm>.
mday bows
dickie_[Guest] says, "Dickie Selfe from Michigan Technological U. way up in the northwoods where the wolves really do howl at night. rselfe@mtu.edu"
mday grins at Dickie.
Lennie cheers in appreciation for Michael being here!
royal_[Guest] shivers at implications of more cold
szann_[Guest] says, "szann is Suzanne Floyd, West Los Angeles College. szann@earthlink.net"
Lennie lights the fire. A warm glow fills the room.
szann_[Guest] says, "loyal TechRhet lurker. . ."
mday says, "A number of years means since 2000. I have taught the course exactly twice, but we are incorporating web pages into our fycomp program too, a massive project"
thinkteacher arrives from Conference Center
Lennie waves to thinkteacher
mday says, "it's cold here, coldest march temp on record after a foot of snow!"
royal_[Guest] says, "hi thinkreacher"
royal_[Guest] says, "er, teacher"
royal_[Guest] shoots his typist
thinkteacher says, "Hello, everyone! I'm Maria Garcia at SAC here with Lennie."
mday likes the idea of a thinkreacher too. I need one!
dickie_[Guest] says, "probably colder there than here. "
Lennie says, "Everyone ready to start!"
mday says, " -15 F last night. "
szann_[Guest] says, "Nice and warm in sunny San Diego"
dickie_[Guest] says, "Oh, I do miss Texas in the spring."
Lennie shivers
mday grins. I'm as ready as I will be!
thinkteacher says, "Me, too!"
Lennie says, "It was down to the twenties here..."
royal_[Guest] says, "let's go!"
Lennie displays slide #6 on Web:

Talking Point 1
What are we talking about?--Defining the Class

What should be the nature and content of this class? We can say it is an introductory class to be taught at the sophmore or junior level, but beyond that everything gets murky.

Heck, what should we call it? Writing for Electronic Media? Introductory Web-Writing? Advanced Composition: Writing for the World Wide Web? Electronic Rhetoric and Composition?

What should the scope of the class be? What is the kind of "writing" it will teach--just writing web pages? What about email and asynchronous communication? chat and other synchronous forums?PowerPoint presentations? MOOwriting?

mday says, "These are tough questions, and the dept and college went round and round about them."
Lennie says, "Just for a bit of background. We are working on proposing such an introductory class here at SAC, but we are having trouble conceiving it."
mday says, "It was a fight just to get the course passed by the curriculum committee"
Lennie nods
szann_[Guest] says, "I, too, am looking to develop such a class"
thinkteacher says, "Those sound as if they'd be good units in the course. There are some things all have in common, but each might have different takes here and there."
dickie_[Guest] says, "Sometimes you have to conceive of it after consulting with other departments. That can be a difficulty talks"
mday says, "First of all, it's a turf matter. Communications argues that they already offer such a course"
mday says, "but it is not the same."
dickie_[Guest] says, "Some CS departments take it on too"
mday says, "So, at our U, "writing" *had* to be in the title."
Lennie says, "I guess we have to define what "writing" is in this context--what are we teaching?"
thinkteacher says, "I've given some thought to where it belongs, and it may be tunnel-vision, but to what degree do disciplines other than English focus on the rhetoric of the Web? "
mday says, "Well, of course I have to go way beyond text, but I don't, for example, go as far as Derrida and DeMan and the PoMo crowd go in defining what's writing."
dickie_[Guest] [to thinkteacher]: some communication depts. do
Lennie says, "It seems to me that rhetoric is distinguishing element for this kind of "writing""
royal_[Guest] says, "I can't think of any other dept that offers web-based instruction at SCSU"
mday says, "I think that since document design is an important part of tech and prof writing, we have a precedent to include elements of design, and esp. information architecture in such a course."
Lennie says, "Visual rhetoric as well as textual and hypertextual rhetoric"
mday [to Lennie]: right!
dickie_[Guest] says, "Here's a thought. Why put web in the main title anywhere? Why not make it a subtitle thing and focus on the kind of communicating you will be asking them to do?"
Lennie [to mday]: Yes I like the precedent point.
Lennie says, "That has been my problem--what to call the class?"
szann_[Guest] says, "I think the web is central to the focus though"
mday says, "but rhetoric underlies all forms of communication, art, utterance, oevre. Many would claim that rhetoric goes far beyond our province."
thinkteacher says, "When I think of the CIS department and art departments here, I don't recall their going into the effect of graphics/text/interactive elements on the viewer."
Lennie nods
szann_[Guest] says, "writing for the web is different than writing an essay or writing a newspaper article"
dickie_[Guest] [to mday]: those two things can overlap to some extent with business programs, eh?
mday says, "I did teach it as grad/undergrad the first time, but that was difficult. It is an all-grad course now."
thinkteacher says, "If rhetoric goes beyond our province, into whose province does it go?"
Lennie says, "How about Electronic Writing?"
mday [to dickie_[Guest]]: yeah, it's about turf, sadly.
dickie_[Guest] [to szann_[Guest]]: how so, Isn't it just another means of delivery?
mday [to Lennie]: that would be a great name.
royal_[Guest] [to mday]: we have a class called computers and composition, it's only offered occasionally and only because Judy Kilborn puts it in the pool
szann_[Guest] says, "to Dickie, it is, but the context of the web demands a different presentation"
mday [to thinkteacher]: well, here we also have the graphical end of web design being taught in the art dept.
Lennie says, "Michael is getting in to the realities of how such a course fits into other degree programs (my talking point 3...)"
mday says, "so there are still turf issues..."
szann_[Guest] says, "it's a different audience"
mday grins
dickie_[Guest] [to szann_[Guest]]: true
mday [to royal_[Guest]]: Judy would be a great teacher for that class! What does it encompass?
Lennie says, "Michael, I noticed from your syllabus that you teach various "genres" of online communication. What are the genres?"
szann_[Guest] says, "to Dickie The mcLuhan media is the massage sort of thing"
dickie_[Guest] says, "It's easier in a small school because there aren't as many departments with specific turfs."
szann_[Guest] says, "to be as inarticulate as possible"
royal_[Guest] [to mday]: it resembles your class description at your web site
mday does have an interesting mix. Music PhD, journalist, a few advanced tech writers, but mostly teachers are taking my class currently
mday says, "Well, genres are pretty flexible in this new territory, but..."
Lennie [to mday]: and you said it is a graduate class, right?
mday says, "We touch upon synchronous (MOOs, MUDs, IRC, chats"
dickie_[Guest] [to szann_[Guest]]: Yes, I love his "learning a living" stuff :-)
thinkteacher leaves for The Write Place
mday says, "asynchronous (mainly e-mail and we analyze spam too)"
Lennie laughs
mday says, "Webbed writing, including creative and business models"
mday says, "and also the impact on teaching and education, since we have so many educators in the class"
mday says, "Just now it is grad, yes."
dickie_[Guest] says, "Sounds like a hoot! I gotta get me one of those classes!"
szann_[Guest] says, "to Dickie it's a great metaphor"
thinkteacher arrives from The Write Place
thinkteacher leaves for Conference Center
dickie_[Guest] says, "Is anyone teaching something like this in the Fall?"
mday says, "McLuhan is good background, as is Ong"
Lennie says, "Ah the good father"
thinkteacher arrives from Conference Center
royal_[Guest] smiles at Lennie
thinkteacher leaves for Conference Center
mday says, "We start with Dennis Baron's "From Pencils to Pixels" which I recommend highly"
thinkteacher arrives from Conference Center
mday isn't teaching it in the fall. It gets offered about every 3 semesters
Lennie says, "I noticed you use Passions, Pedagogies--is it a good text for such a class?"
dickie_[Guest] says, "A book-length piece that does something similar is Diebert's book, forget the name. Sorry"
mday says, "Yes, it's good. Students take issue with a lot of the more PoMo and critical pedagogy essays, but that makes for good discussion"
Lennie says, "I think we should move on to TP2..."
Lennie displays slide #7 on Web:

Talking Point 2
Why should this class be taught in the English Department?

With something like this class being taught by many other departments--Journalism, Communications, Visual Arts--what is the justification for this class in the English Department?

Implicit within this question is the tension between teaching technical skills and teaching the rhetorical proficiency with those skills. What's the balance between teaching technology and teaching writing?

Lennie says, "We kind of hit this point already, but it is important."
thinkteacher says, "Boy, I'm relieved you won't be flashing, Lennie! Talk about writing for the Web!"
Lennie laughs, turns red
dickie_[Guest] says, "we have a cultural studies background as well as Rh. as others have said."
mday says, "well, you have to consider that great divide. Between the liberal education just for the enrichment of the well rounded mind, and the new paradigm, that says "train me to write well for the workplace, nothing else!""
dickie_[Guest] says, "We have a process approach that isn't always found in Communication depts. "
szann_[Guest] says, "I'm concerned about getting bogged down with html "
mday [to szann_[Guest]]: I don't really teach much html or software.
szann_[Guest] says, "and I'm not interested in graphics and all that"
mday says, "It's up to them to learn it."
szann_[Guest] says, "Ah"
Lennie says, "The technical is the means for "expression" so if you don't know the technical you can't express well. "
dickie_[Guest] says, "Give them the basics and set up some option for the advanced folks to teach little workshops and you and they will learn a lot. "
mday says, "I make lots of resources and tutors available to them, but mostly they have to learn the tech side on their own. Class is about principles, impacts, implimentations, case studies."
Lennie says, "in this kind of writing..."
szann_[Guest] says, "what motivates students to take this course? Are they budding web designers, or people who want to use the web as a means to an end, such as a course website?"
mday says, "One student already gave a great presentation on XML, but it is up to them"
thinkteacher says, "Don't mean to offend anyone, but I heard a teacher once say, "journalists don't write. They type." In Visual Arts, there's much resistance to evaluation because it stifles creativity, and rightly so. But web stuff needs to be monitored for effectiveness. Communications - what's that? I'm not sure it belongs anywhere else."
mday says, "I've had great student presentations on Flash, java, applets, blogs, you name it"
Lennie says, "Wow! Sounds nice"
mday says, "Mainley employability, sxann"
mday says, "szann"
mday is feeling carpal tunnel symptoms, drat
CarolAnn_[Guest] arrives from AlaMOO Plaza
dickie_[Guest] says, "We have background in usability testing as well, at least Tech. Comm folks do"
szann_[Guest] says, "to mday it's an online class--right?"
thinkteacher says, "It sounds as if the course needs a strong technology support pylon if they're expected to learn the technology on their own."
mday [to dickie_[Guest]]: that's where we do case studies, right
Lennie says, "I think the rationale for such a class in the English department is mostly rhetorical--looking at writing in a larger context than simply the technical."
mday says, "no, it has a webboard, but it's a F2F class"
royal_[Guest] says, "I would have to agree with Lennie, what is outside the technical aspect--"
thinkteacher says, "HI, Carol Ann!"
mday [to thinkteacher]: exactly. Luckily English dept here has a very strong support staff in its Networked Writing and Research Lab
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "What's an F2F class?"
royal_[Guest] says, "Is the rationale for this course in an En. Dept"
Lennie waves to Carol Ann.
dickie_[Guest] [to CarolAnn_[Guest]]: face-to-face
mday says, "Most of the students know that they will need to have web skills to be able to pick and choose their jobs in the future."
royal_[Guest] [to mday]: is your course geared toward teacher education?
dickie_[Guest] says, "there are very few majors where the web isn't an important medium "
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "I am wondering if Michael Day has seen Margaret Batschelet's book WebWriting Web Designing? I took her class (under Communications at UTSA) when she was developing it. "
mday says, "I think the balance is decidedly on the side of teaching rhetorical principles of writing for the web."
Lennie [to mday]: But do they perceive their need for "web skills" as a need for a kind of writing skill?
mday says, "In my class, that's what I want them to get"
mday says, "Anyone can learn a software program or html"
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "how does this course relate to technical writing or technical communications?"
dickie_[Guest] [to Lennie]: perhaps an obvious literacy skill, but maybe not associated as strongly with writing.
mday says, "but not everyone can use the software or html intelligently"
Lennie says, "Carol Ann is prompting me to move on to Talking Point 3..."
thinkteacher says, "The web skills seem different tools to me -- stylus, quill pen, Gutenberg press, typewriter, computer. Paper, papyrus, pixels."
Lennie says, "Whoops again..."
Lennie displays slide #8 on Web:

Talking Point 3
Where does this class fit in the curriculum?

Would this class be on par with a sophmore TechWriting or Creative Writing class? (Would Tech Writing need to be prerequisite?) Should it only be offered as a Junior level class? Should it be offered as a specialized Freshman Composition class?

What different degree programs would this class perhaps fit within for credit (this is the important one), and what is the justification for including it as a degree requirement or elective?
mday [to CarolAnn_[Guest]]: good question. It was supposed to be an advanced Tech Comm class. But mostly HS, MS and college teachers take it. So it's an odd hybrid. I do base much of what I do on Tech Comm principles
szann_[Guest] says, "I would love to see this be an Eng 1 alternative, but getting that past curriculum approval seems unlikely"
Lennie [to mday]: I was interested to hear you are creating specialized sections of Freshman comp to be this kind of class. Tell us abou that.
mday says, "in answer to the question, it might depend on whether you want to to creative HT or professional HT."
dickie_[Guest] says, "could be any of the above, don't you think. Eventually it will seem abit like making a course up based on the five-paragraph theme. Everyone does it and applies it to their specialty communication ."
mday says, "There is a strong movement in electronic lit now, that's pretty interesting."
szann_[Guest] says, "to mday no everyone can use msword intelligently (!!)"
Lennie says, "HT?"
szann_[Guest] says, "oops, I meant, "not everyone""
mday says, "But I generally keep to the practical side, while encouraging *well-tested* creativity"
thinkteacher says, "I think tech comm is the foundation. The TEchwriting strand seems more in line with what you're thinking, because at the point we go to creative writing on the web, it's a different animal. Maybe 2 courses?"
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "why do you think HS, MS and college teachers are taking this course? Do they think it's easier, or more important, or are they teaching these skills in HS/MS now? "
mday [to szann_[Guest]]: what about just a unit devoted to webbed essays or projects?
Lennie says, "I do a web-writing project with my Freshman Comp I students--but to do the whole course that way...?"
mday says, "OK, I am getting behind. Lennie, we are having the FYcomp sections taught by my group of TAs (the new ones) do webbed projects based on the semester focus on community"
szann_[Guest] says, "certainly that would be a component, but the point that was made about writing email is important too, and goes beyond webpages"
dickie_[Guest] [to CarolAnn_[Guest]]: probably because they can see how easy it will be to implement in their classes/jobs?
Ann_[Guest] arrives from Conference Center
royal_[Guest] says, "I tried to incorporate a unit in web-essays in my 1y comp class, but it 'ate' up the time for other things"
szann_[Guest] says, "I find that students don't know how to communicate well in email, they tend to be overly familiar "
mday says, "they have caught the bug, and know that it is part of the future in education. Schools are finally getting it, and more and more students *expect* it"
Lennie says, "I envisioned this class--at the Community College at least--at an equivalent level as Tech Writing and Creative Writing. Sophmore level."
thinkteacher says, "I think hs teachers may be taking it at the urging of their supervisors. Had my daughter's junior English teacher tell me she was getting acquainted with the new unit on her desk against her will."
royal_[Guest] says, "Judy Kilborn, here, does teach her 1y comp classes in a blend of f2f and MOO"
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "how do you define the outcomes for this class? The competencies?"
dickie_[Guest] [to thinkteacher]: brother, one way to ensure failure, require it against their will. Like they have time for such nonsense
royal_[Guest] kicks at his slow university connection
szann_[Guest] says, "what scares me about essays is having a page of bland text--which doesn't make for an effective use of the medium. Hyperlinks, at least, would have to be included to differentiate it from the essay they would write in FYcomp"
mday says, "there could be a lot of supervisory urging, and probably the possibility for professional development credit or salary bumps"
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "I use WW Norton's ConnectWeb in my comp1 and basic classes, but we don't do web writing separately. They work in MSWord and post to the web, but they are barely able to achieve the competencies without adding web. "
Lennie says, "As we have worked on getting this class "approved" here, part of what we have to receive is letters from two four year schools that will accept the course in their degree requirements."
thinkteacher says, "To get it accepted in the degree requirements of two universities, maybe we need to target their education departments?"
Lennie says, "I'm not sure what other degree programs would consider the class for credit (probably elective credit)"
mday [to CarolAnn_[Guest]]: You cut to the chase! We develop a rubric for the web pages and apply it ourselves. In general, the web site has to follow the principles of design, navigation, structure, usability, that we discuss all semester
mday says, "if a site breaks the rules in some way, there must be an explanation in the rationale paper that gets turned in with the site"
Lennie says, "I like the idea of a rationale paper in this context."
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "to mday that sounds like the senior level course (that I took as a special topics graduate course) at UTSA, not a sophomore level course. Are we trying to do too much at the community college?"
thinkteacher says, "I think any degree program that requires technical writing is a likely candidate for accepting our course too."
dickie_[Guest] [to mday]: that's what I'm doing this term too.
mday nods. They need to explain why the site works the way it does, why choices were made, who is it for, etc. Did I mention that these are mostly all client projects?
dickie_[Guest] says, "I had students to this rationale paper thing at Clemson last year with f-y students."
szann_[Guest] says, "since there are so many returning students and adults at the community college, I don't think it's an unreasonable course alternative"
Lennie [to CarolAnn_[Guest]]: Ann I think this class would fit really well at the sophmore level
Lennie says, "sorry Carol Ann..."
royal_[Guest] [to CarolAnn_[Guest]]: I don't see why at the community college level one couldn't implement this kind of class
dickie_[Guest] [to mday]: sounds like a good final piece for an online portfolio as well.
szann_[Guest] says, "so many students have their own webpages already anyway--but I'm teaching online, so my student population is already less traditional than the non-traditional CC student"
Ann_[Guest] says, ""Lennie, the degree programs that seem most likely are English, communication, journalism and business programs, and maybe education majors, I would guess, are you looking for something other than those? I'm not sure about the sciences, but many of those professional papers are online or in PowerPoint, too."
royal_[Guest] says, "the pedagogy remains the same"
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "who are the clients? outside the college or within? in my class, students had to design homepages for faculty. Is that the kind of thing you have them doing? I looked at your site and it appeared that the sites were outside the school. Did the students find them? Were they paid? Were they hired to keep them current? I couldn't see them all because even with a fast connection, some loaded too slowly to wait for. Is that a consideration in the grade? "
mday says, "the big roadblock that you will have to consider is the force in any English Dept. that this is not writing and not literature, and to call it such weakens an English Dept"
Lennie says, "I don't know if some Computer Science degrees still require a sophmore level class, but this class might fit."
dickie_[Guest] says, "Anyone have a mandate for a porfolio assessment at their school? If so, this might fit that need as well."
royal_[Guest] says, "I think we should discuss how incorporating MOO might be different than other technology-driven courses"
thinkteacher says, "One of the considerations for grade should be load time, Lennie."
Lennie speaks the words of prophetic doom...
mday has wanted to institute online portfolios here too, but I have failed in all my grantwriting attempts
Lennie says, "I mean mday speaks the words of doom"
mday wants the portfolio requirement, at a Univ. level, dearly. Like what they do at Washington State
szann_[Guest] says, "I'm lost--load time? grantwriting?"
Lennie says, "What about specialized sections of Freshman Comp?"
Lennie says, "If we could make sure the course covered the "departmental competencies for the course" why not?"
mday says, "you might get away with that, but if it's all webbed, students may complain. They generally select for time, not for content"
royal_[Guest] says, "*using* technology is not the same as creating a distance-learning course, etc"
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "I don't necessarily mean we shouldn't do it, but I think the argument will arise so we need to address it--not being a cc course "
dickie_[Guest] [to Lennie]: indeed, why not?
Lennie says, "If the students knew the specialized nature of the class and signed up for it, of course."
thinkteacher says, "Szann, load time means the speed at which a web page comes up when a student clicks on a link. Generally, you lose a viewer if it takes longer than 8 seconds to load over a 56 k modem."
Lennie says, "Well on to point 4..."
mday says, "The most I think that folks have done is to have students do automated webfolios using MS word save as web page or one of the courseware bundles"
Lennie displays slide #9 on Web:

Talking Point 4
What would be a fitting trajectory of assignments for this course?

Just as many writing teachers craft their Freshman Composition classes to move from narrative to argument, from writing about self to writing that incorporates the ideas and words of others, can we imagine a sequence of assignments that seems to fit this course? Course overview from Michael's Writing for Electronic Media class

Would this course be best seen as a two semester sequence?

Course Overview: (copied from Michael's online syllabus)

Part One: Introduction —Survey of online writing and information design, including online information genres. Relevance to professional and technical communications.

Part Two: Major theories and methodologies of online writing and information design, including theories of online reading and methods for ascertaining readers’ needs.

Part Three: Collaboration and interactivity in online writing and publication.

Part Four: Evaluation of effectiveness of online texts: application of research to examples. Possible case studies and guest presenters.

Part Five: Planning and drafting in individual or group web design projects.

Part Six: Presentations of individual and group web design projects.

mday says, "ooh, the trajectory word! Cool!"
szann_[Guest] says, "to thinkteacher thanks, I finally got it, I missed the context the first time"
Lennie says, "I fumbled for that word..."
szann_[Guest] says, "(and I'm on dialup myself!!!!)"
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "good luck on having two semesters--I have to teach the entire Bible in one!"
mday says, "I think my sequence and focus is appropriate for a grad class, but may be too much for an undergrad class"
dickie_[Guest] says, "I would start off with a lot of work on the audiences for these webs. Do some usability stuff including some focus group interviews with target audiences. "
royal_[Guest] says, "Would the second sememster be a university elective?"
Lennie says, "It seems like you'd have to start with nature of "electronic communication" (whatever we can say that nature is)."
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "do universities have a similar course at the sophomore level?"
Lennie says, "Not right now, I don't think."
dickie_[Guest] says, "And a lot of web/library research mixed in."
royal_[Guest] says, "I don't think so "
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "what level is web writing included in university curriculae?"
mday says, "Well, in grad classes, I like to start out with some theory, and discuss the implications of these new technologies on our work, learning, relationships, and communication habits."
szann_[Guest] says, "there is a trend toward "service learning" to what extent this is a regional or national issue I'm not sure, but I would like to see service learning as a component for the final web project, and the other assignments would lead up to that"
thinkteacher says, "Lennie, it seems logical to go from flat to native to metanative if it exists."
Lennie [to szann_[Guest]]: Sounds like a winner for a grant proposal to me.
mday [to szann_[Guest]]: that's part of our focus too.
mday says, "Some of the FYcomp and grad web projects will be part of what we are calling the Illinois Cultural Tourism Database"
szann_[Guest] says, "grant proposal--my other point of confusion"
thinkteacher says, "At some point, a discussion of the various elements and which ones are interactive seems basic."
royal_[Guest] says, "What, really, is the difference between looking at Rh. situation in web sites and elsewhere?"
dickie_[Guest] says, "cool, webbed grant writing!"
Lennie agrees with royal
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "service learning might be the key to getting the course approved, since that's a big push here. Students would be developing web pages for non-profit orgs, etc., but is the market infinite?"
royal_[Guest] says, "Could'nt one make the case that teaching in one provides skills for loooking at others?"
mday says, "so those that don't have client projects can consider libraries and schoolrooms and cultural tourists their audience, and make informative sites on local landmarks for them."
Lennie [to mday]: Sounds like a natural.
szann_[Guest] says, "I think the market is infinite considering the web is truly global"
mday says, "but be careful with service learning with big classes or many sections at the UG level"
dickie_[Guest] [to CarolAnn_[Guest]]: just about. The hard part is keeping the contact people happy enough to work with sutdents over and over.
szann_[Guest] says, "locality doesn't have to play into it at all"
thinkteacher says, "Once they can identify the elements and their rhetorical effects, maybe they can study how interactive electronic communications can serve the agencies that service learning helps."
mday says, "Finding clients for hundreds of students would be way too much. So we shifted our focus from "writing for" to "writing about""
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "and what about upkeep of the sites once they are designed? That's the biggest problems with actual sites on the web, I think"
szann_[Guest] says, "do they work in groups at all?"
dickie_[Guest] [to szann_[Guest]]: you won't think so but having close personal contacts REALLY helps most student groups
Lennie says, "I hate to wrap things up, but I want to end at 1:30 so Michael can get off to his class on time. "
Lennie displays slide #10 on Web:

Concluding Thoughts and Comments

What can we say to wrap up the discussion?

Thank you for attending!
Make plans to attend next month's 1stMondays@AlaMOO on April 1st from 2-3 CST when we will have a session previewing the upcoming Computers and Writing 2002 Online conference.

dickie_[Guest] [to thinkteacher]: ah, teacher research. good notion
szann_[Guest] says, "to dickie, yes, I can see that, particularly for building relationships beyond one semester"
mday says, "We have several stable servers for projects, but encourage students to get clients to provide server space for the finished projects"
dickie_[Guest] [to mday]: can't we just meet you students online and interview them about the class :-)
mday has assurances from our Dept webmaster that we can keep projects that are still useful online as long as someone (often me) maintains them.
Lennie says, "I think we can say that this type of course is really a new frontier."
mday says, "You sure can! We meet Tuesdays at 6 Central"
royal_[Guest] says, "I agree, and I think that CC are leading the way--"
thinkteacher says, "You've got a big job ahead of you, Len, but lots of support here."
dickie_[Guest] calls my bluff
Lennie laughs
mday says, "this was not a good time for them, although I did invite them."
mday says, "But just let me know if you want to talk to them and I can arrange a MOO session."
mday says, "We did have a Tuesday Cafe devoted to answering their questions, and the log is on the web"
dickie_[Guest] says, "I think I'm free this week"
thinkteacher says, "Moo session with the clients being served sounds useful."
dickie_[Guest] says, "I'll take a look. "
mday says, "hmm, how many clients would/could MOO?"
Lennie says, "Thanks Michael and everyone for coming. "
dickie_[Guest] says, "Thanks all, it's been great hearing from you. Stay well."
Lennie says, "if a moo could..."
mday grins and waves! Thanks for coming, everyone!
royal_[Guest] [to mday]: thank you
szann_[Guest] says, "thanks to everyone for making my first MOO an enjoyable one!"
szann_[Guest] says, "and informative"
mday [to Lennie]: they got my course URL, right?
CarolAnn_[Guest] says, "thanks for letting me come late after class. Interesting start....but not a finish!"
thinkteacher says, "If Lennie and Michael set up another session with the clients, let me know."
dickie_[Guest] [to mday]: take care of the carpel stuff!
Lennie says, "So long. Glad you could join us szann"
royal_[Guest] [to Lennie]: thanks for sending me instructions, I'm glad I could attend
mday will do, it seems to be better now.
szann_[Guest] says, "I feel newly motivated to get on this project"
Lennie [to royal_[Guest]]: Glad you could make it too!
dickie_[Guest] has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove dickie_[Guest].
royal_[Guest] waves to everyone
thinkteacher says, "Carol Ann, things in your life end?"
Lennie says, "Let me know how it goes"

-- End log: Monday, March 4, 2002 1:31:11 pm AlaMOO time --