-- Start log: Monday, September 8, 2003 2:05:28 pm AlaMOO time --

Welcome to AlaMOO
and
the September 2003 1stMondays@AlaMOO!

Today's discussion is about e-journaling and two articles from the current Computers and Composition Online:
"The Year of the Blog: Weblogs in the Writing Classroom," by Barclay Barrios (Rutgers University)
and "The Journal and Writing Place," byJohn Scenters-Zapico (University of Texas at El Paso)

Lennie displays slide #2 on Web:

Introduction

My name is Lennie Irvin, and I will be your moderator for today's discussion. Before we get started, there are a couple of things to cover.

Talking Points: Because online discussions tend to get fractured easily, we will organize our discussion around a number of "talking points."
Periodically, I will post the next talking point to guide the discussion.

Recording: Our discussion will be recorded for others to access who can't attend. Logs of the MOO session will be available via the web and
for anyone who requests an email copy. If you are using any of this material for research purposes, you must gain the permission of anyone
you cite ("If you can't find'em, don't cite'em.").

Introduce yourself: Please send a message now stating your name, email address, and where you are from.

Lennie says, "We might start with some introductions and if you put your email I'll send you the transcript later"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "Hi, I am John at UTEP.  jscenters@utep.edu"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "Barclay from Rutgers U. barclay.barrios@rutgers.edu"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "Dene, Texas Woman's U dene@eaze.net"

Lennie says, "I'm Lennie Irvin and I teach at San Antonio College in Tejas"

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "OK, I'm Joel Haefner, WPA at Illinois Wesleyan U, jhaefner@iwu.edu. Meant to get to 1stMondays earlier."

Lennie waves to Dene.  Glad you're here!

Grigar_[Guest] says, "Good to see your MOO again"

Lennie  is glad everyone is here.

Lennie displays slide #3 on Web:

    

A special welcome and thanks to Barclay Barrios and John Scenters-Zapico for attending.

Barclay's article, "The Year of the Blog: Weblogs in the Writing Classroom," is one of the best "web-texts"
I have encountered--easy to read, visually pleasing, fluid for navigation, informative. Grace in pixels.

If you haven't taken a look at it, you might glance at it now.

Grigar_[Guest] says, "I just congratulate him on his wonderful coding and design"

Barclay_[Guest] says, ""

Lennie says, "I hope you all got a chance to look at Barclay's article. It was great."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "congratulatedddd"

Lennie says, "Grace in pixels."

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "Congrats"

Lennie [to Barclay_[Guest]]: Now you can show your students what you want them to do...

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "Great job; love the design (and I teach web design!)"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "if anyone wants the secrets of the semi-trans design, just email me -- it's a real kluge"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "very clean and elegant"

Lennie says, "I will be guiding our discussion with some Talking Points.  On to the first."

Lennie displays slide #4 on Web:

Talking Point 1

Let's start with blogs:

What are common characteristics of a blog?

In what ways does it perform similar functions that we might have done with other technological
tools? What, then, are its advantages and disadvantages?

Example class blog from Samantha Blackman (all class can post)
Example of blog as course platform

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "very useful.  What's kluge?"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "technobabble for workaround that isn't technically clean and elegant but makes it work 
-- like bubblegum holding together the works"

Lennie  laughs.  

Lennie says, "I believe in duct tape for just about anything."

Barclay_[Guest] says, "LOL -- just so!"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "putting things together that did not start as being together but the end result is a newer and 
sometimes better product"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "paperclips"

Beddoes_[Guest] chuckles and recommends SD-40 in addition to duct tape

Lennie says, "Your article is what got me interested in blogs."

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "seems like we all now how to make things work, eh!"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "thanks, but it was inevitable -- blogs are very much in the aether right now"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "why do you say that?"

Lennie says, "They seem to be very versitle but basically like a discussion board that displays all its messages."

Barclay_[Guest] says, "well, they really started making the news, especially with the war in Iraq and blogs 
from soldiers and Salaam Pax"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "I find that some of them are hard to read since the text is not chunked"

Lennie [to Dene]: I also find that I only go so far in my blog-reading--perhaps because often they seem so personal.

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "I've really been struck by the fact that some blogware enables readers to change the 
blog. This is not your mother's journal!"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I agree with Grigar, but find that it is another option and possibiliy to interact."

Lennie nods to John.  Here here to interacting

Grigar_[Guest] says, "yes, I find them important and timely.  But are their protocols in netiquette like there are in MOOs?"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "I like how flexible they are, for all the reasons above -- they can do a lot of stuff"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "We have developed over the course of a decade or more how to MOO effectively"

Lennie [to Barclay_[Guest]]: How would you say they are different from a discussion board for a group using a blog?

Grigar_[Guest] says, "are their comparable suggestons for blogging?"

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "Or another way of asking Grigar's question... do the host services structure interaction like, 
say, enCore suggests and prods players and wizards?"

Grigar_[Guest] nods

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "The good news is they are free.  I have to charge 15.00 to students to pay my bills."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "they pay it and the university allows that?"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "Well, blogs aren't natively set-up for discussion, though perhaps for collaboration"

Grigar_[Guest] scratches her head

Grigar_[Guest] says, "but they are used for communication"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "For use of The Journal Place, which is distinct from a blog or Moo"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "and communcating requires cues"

Lennie says, "I imagine there is a kind of "ethos" around blogs with what is "in" and "out""

Grigar_[Guest] says, "so I am asking what the cues are for blogging "

Grigar_[Guest] says, "what is good writing in a blog?"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "actually, a good way to start getting to that is the whole Kaycee Nicole affair -- long 
story, but the short version is that it was a blog that turned out to be fake and really wounded the blogosphere, 
so one of the implicit assumptions about blogs is that they're fact not fiction"

Lennie [to Dene]: Barclay can probalby say better, but personal blogs seem to have a sense of the blog-author 
being a good, cool, and interesting host.

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "Have we really had any definitive theoretical article(s) on blogs? Aren't we still 
groping for an aesthetic?"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "I think blog theory is what's next..."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "okay, but a course platform blog is not a personal blog, right?"

Lennie nods

Grigar_[Guest] says, "they have moved from the personal to the professional?"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "and when they do, the writing shifts"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "actually, moved in both directions -- the first "blog" by some theories was a what's 
new page... and they're related to corporate knowledge management tools -- in this sense, we need to 
think perhaps about blog as tool v. blog as genre"

Lennie  agrees. There is a link to a course platform blog in Talking Point 1.

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I see electronic blogs/journals/moos as good ground for practicing social/rhetorical 
skills.  I am not sure what the shift is from personal to professional"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "what is appropriate for posting in a class and what is appropriate to post on a personal site?"

Lennie [to John]: I guess a class blog could just be a means for announcing assignments.  Not much cmc there.

Grigar_[Guest] says, "if there any difference. . ."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "I have always liked Jill walker's blog"

Lennie [to Dene]: Ah... you are hitting on one of the Talking Points.  So I'm going to jump ahead.

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "and throw in the question of accessibility... blogs can be password-controlled, right, or 
available behind a firewall?"

Lennie displays slide #7 on Web:

Talking Point 4

Private vs Public Writing

Both "blogs" and "journal" have connotations of private writing. For instance, in my own journal handout
for my Freshman Composition I students, I describe the journal as a place for more private writing: "It is
the place in this course where you can freely express yourself and not worry about the more complex
dynamics of reaching an audience. In this dialogue with your inner self, you will express the thoughts
and feelings that later can become part of your more formal writing in the course." (My students turn
in a paper copy of their journal only to me.)

However, both blogs and John's "The Journal and Writing Place" create a public forum for writing.

How do we manage public and private writing in these two online environments?
What is gained and lost by abandoning private writing in a composition course?

definitions of "diary" and "journal" from John's article:
Diary: A free-hand, daily, written document about personal events, familiar people, or personal
problems/issues/situations that the author intends to keep private-an ongoing discussion/story with the self with
no set purpose except to see the author's thoughts in writing.
Journal: A structured, written document recording events with an end purpose, such as research, observation,
proof of a theory, etc. Journals are written for public consumption and have an introduction, body and conclusion.
The purpose/topic of the journal is clearly stated in the document.

Grigar_[Guest] nods

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I hope it's more than just posting for a class."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "some are and some are not"

Lennie says, "Here is the one on public vs private writing."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "so a blog is in intellectual diary"

Lennie says, "The tension between public and private is very much in my mind because I see blogs primarily 
as a kind of private writing made public."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "one that traces a journal of thinking over time"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "and makes that journey sharable with others?"

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "This is pretty interesting to me... my wife does a lot of theory on women's diaries, 
and she's discovered that in Victorian age diaries were often communal family documents"

Lennie says, "Interesting!"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "well, Dante, for one, would not have a journey remain a private one:)"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "that IS interesting... but again it's a question of blog as genre v. blog as tool"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "can't we say the same thing about writing?"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "While journals can be private (on the Web?) I see them as social 
classrooms in which the students' ideas are shared in the safety of the e-classroom, but all students 
see they are exposed and accountable to their peers."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "writing in terms of genre and in terms of tool?"

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "there's so much overlap between genre v. tool... functionality of blogware will 
affect genre... thinking again about whether readers can respond to logs."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "yes, the media affects the message"

Lennie says, "I have traditionally tried to create a space for private (semi) writing for my students in the 
form of journal.  But of course I read them.  "

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I taught a class on journal and diary writing--the lines blur as to what 
they mean and can be.   A lot of historical examples exist highlighting that two overlap and often are 
public from the get-go."

Grigar_[Guest] says, "anyone read Anais Nin's diaries?"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "some of the most famous"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "so blogs are perhaps more consistent with "old media" genres like diary than 
we might at first think"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "released in the late seventies and early 80s"

Lennie [to John]: Do you think students write differently if they know their teacher is going to read the 
journal vs the potential that their whole class might read it.

Grigar_[Guest] says, "I hope so:)"

Grigar_[Guest] laughs

Lennie [to Dene]: I have heard of them, but not read them... 

Grigar_[Guest] says, "it would be interesting to compare analogue diaries with blogs"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "to see what is remediated in the new"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I would guess so.  But I try to make opportunities in which students 
can't just write to me or another peer.  I think it causes them to consider more how and what they say."

Beddoes_[Guest] [to Grigar]: that would be a fascinating comparison--and yes, using Bolter's idea of 
remediation

Barclay_[Guest] says, "here's an interesting development, though -- for my cyberlit course I picked two 
blogs at random for the class to read -- both noticed we were reading from their referrer logs and blogged 
about us -- "

Grigar_[Guest] says, "sounds like a dissertatoin to me"

Lennie [to Barclay_[Guest]]: They were interested in their audience!

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "Wow. Talk about interactivity the reader responding to the writer responding 
to the reader and so forth... infinite loop, rhetorically speaking."

Barclay_[Guest] says, "yes -- and not something that can be done with printed (and hence presumbably 
static) diaries -- "

Grigar_[Guest] says, "they were not meant to be read by others, probably another difference"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "the audience was the self"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "Are you sure about that, G?"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "well, Anais wrote hers with the intention of being found and read"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "but others are not so exicted about sharing"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "Case closed!"

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "Got to reiterate that many diaries were written to keep family members 
abreast of day to day life... I think the big difference between print and electronic diaries may be time, 
fixity vs. fluidity"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "diaries were a conversaton with the self"

Lennie says, "Do you think that the computer composing and web publishing of these journal texts 
empowers the students?"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "and with a small well chosen few"

Lennie says, "or just any writer?"

Grigar_[Guest] says, "not surely the entire Western culture that read Nin's:)"

Beddoes_[Guest] says, "I am very sorry; I have an appt. and must go. Thanks so much."

Beddoes_[Guest] has disconnected.

The housekeeper arrives to remove Beddoes_[Guest].

Lennie says, "Blogs make it dialoging with the self and the world."

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "Nice meeting you."

Lennie says, "I have a couple of Talking Points relating to interface."

Lennie displays slide #5 on Web:

Talking Point 2

Blog Interface

Does the blog return something of a sense of listserv-ness to a web-based "bulletin board"
genre (rather than an email-based genre)? All posts are visible--no extra step is needed to
open a message, no segregating of certain posts into different forum folders.

from S. Blackman's blog: "I think that building another online community through weblogs will give
educators a chance to share pedagogical and theoretical ideas in a way that listservs do not. Why?
Because many people do not subscribe to listserv for fear of being overwhelmed with individual (or
digested) messages when they don't have time to read them. Blogs give you the chance to look at
other people's thoughts when (or if) you get the opportunity."

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "How much, Lennie, do students have the chance to dialogue with world?  Probably
 more if they go outside academics, I think."

Barclay_[Guest] says, "but blogs open the possibility of going outside academics :)"

Lennie says, "I thought this quote from Samantha was interesting."

Barclay_[Guest] says, "It is -- I know I delete 90% of what I get from the WPA-L because my inbox is already overflowing"

Lennie [to Barclay_[Guest]]: Do you feel like the way blogs expose messages makes it like a listserv (for a community 
blog).

Barclay_[Guest] says, "hrm -- the big difference is in organization -- blog entries are organized by time, listserv/discussion 
board by topic first then time -- and sometimes, if I want to find THIS or THAT, organized by topic is good"

Lennie [to Barclay_[Guest]]: I suppose Content Management Systems like PostNuke or Drupal are blog-like in their 
posting ability, but most will only summarize an "article" post so you have to click the link to read the full post.

Barclay_[Guest] says, "drupal actually has some fans in the blogging world, so yes it must cross that line"

Lennie says, "I wanted to also get to the "web-ness" of both blogs and TJP"

Lennie displays slide #6 on Web:

Talking Point 3

Web Writing

Both blogs and John's "The Journal and Writing Place" make "web writing" easier and
accessible to student. What I mean by "web writing" is writing that can be viewed on the
world wide web and writing that is hypertextual and multimedia (containing images,
sounds, and video--potentially).

What is the effect on our instruction and on the students' writing and learning experience
by this ease of "web writing?"

Lennie says, "Do you think students/writers become more engaged because they are now writing in more than just 
a print medium?"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "I would say the students I know tend to be more excited about blogging than writing in other 
forms, though I would not argue for one reason why that is so"

Lennie [to John]: I notice in TJP that students can add some graphics to their site and entries.

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I think it's a different type of engagement, with more possibilities for different looks 
and interpretations."

Lennie says, "Even in this MOO, my students can add backgrounds and pictures and even sounds to their rooms 
and texts.  It becomes a different kind of writing that gets them engaged in visual rhetoric from the beginning."

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "Yes, they can.  The students can put in picts of themselves, the teacher can 
create Dynamic Zones with picts to enhance the focus."

Barclay_[Guest] says, "I think the turn to visual rhetoric is great, and not something automatically engendered by blogs"

Lennie says, "I've seen some blogs that seem to enable a lot of web-text creation freedom.  Though many seem to 
build upon a template and not go much farther."

Barclay_[Guest] says, "well, and there are some photo blogs out there, too -- but many take a standard template 
and just focus on text and hyperlinks"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I think the ability to add components outside (yet part of) the textual realm help 
them and us to show what effects our statements/posting have."

Lennie [to John]: When students spend time finding just the right picture or background or fuss about the layout
--I think that is interesting.

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "How do you all grade your blogs and journals?  What %"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "My primary use of blogs has been personal, and in my research so I haven't dealt with 
assessment yet -- but how would it be different from other kinds of journalling?"

Lennie [to John]: I have my students do freewriting journals for seven weeks and it counts as part of a daily grade worth 20%

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I agree with you Lennie.  Because then they'll wants friends to see what they did and 
what their electronic community is like and how they can control it (sort of)."

Lennie [to John]: I don't really do the same kind of "journal" as you. 

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I give about 20% of the whole grade, based on weekly entries."

Lennie says, "Before we run out of time, I wanted to get to some of the method behind the madness of TJP."

Lennie displays slide #8 on Web:

    Talking Point 5

"Stasis an Aha!": John's software evolution

John's evolution of "The Journal and Writing Place" illustrates in an excellent way how
a teacher has crafted technology to fit a specific pedagogical goal, rather than the other
way around (view his precursors).

His "journal" approach calls on students to move beyond observation and reflection, and
creates a specific place to contain the knowledge, realizations, values gained from these
observations (abstract conceptualization)--the crucial ingredients for transference of
knowledge. Plus, it puts this activity in a social context of exchange.

I thought we would take a little time to discuss John's evolution and the special learning
his software helps to create.

Definition of Stasis and Aha!:
" Stasis and Aha! can be explained as follows: Stasis is where students reflect on readings, issues, or responses
to questions given by the teacher; the majority of students' journal writing occurs here. Aha! is where students
make new realizations or change their views from ones expressed in the Stasis column. The new realizations
come about from class discussions, interactions, new readings, etc."--from John's article.

Lennie [to John]: I now appreciate your Aha! part of journals better!

Barclay_[Guest] says, "it's a really great concept!"

Lennie says, "I have done a lot of "reflection" stuff with my students lately, but I left implicit within the assignments
that students would "get to" the abstract conceptualization."

Lennie says, "TJP gives it a special place."

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "It's a good way to say we don't teach immediately graspable ideas, but when they
come home, boy do they."

Lennie [to John]: Also that reflection is not a one moment thing.

Barclay_[Guest] says, "well, and that we can't teach the ungraspable so much as create an environment for it to happen"

Lennie  nods to Barclay

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I like (Barklay)."

Lennie says, "Also, TJP places this "individual-insight-space" in a public context where others can benefit from that
student's "ahas""

Barclay_[Guest] says, "perhaps spaces like TJP make that more possible since the web itself assumes connection
(hyperlinkin)?"

Lennie [to John]: Ok.  I'm going to put you on the spot to explain something you had in the TJP article...

Lennie displays slide #9 on Web:

Talking Point 6

Theory behind John's approach

John wrote: "I worked on creating a journal that required students to exchange with
each other from the get-go, theoretically drawing from the Russian concept "cuzoj" (note:
accent above c and z) which means "other" and "svoj" means one's own as employed
by Mikhail Bakhtin (p. 423) and my own emerging understanding of the enthymeme
(Rhetoric Society Quarterly; Pre/Text; American Indian Quarterly)."

Can you elaborate on this a little John?

Lennie says, "Sorry..."

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "Hmmm"

Lennie [to John]: I thought this mention of Bakhtin and also your work with enthymeme was really interesting 
and I was hoping you would elaborate.

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "With writing seeming to be a private process (romantic instruction), yet 
something inherently public, it always seemed to me a tough idea to understand, much less to teach with 
tools and pedagogy."

Lennie [to John]: I feel that tension in how I use journals right now--romantic instruction

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "With cuzoj and other Russians I've always liked the idea that the word is 
borne in public and becomes internalized (or impelled), so it's social even in our consciousness.  The 
enthymeme assumes some sort of socially understood connection."

Lennie [to John]: So all the more reason to make "the word" public.

Barclay_[Guest] says, "on the web :)"

Lennie [to John]: I'm still not sure about the enthymeme

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "Students think journals are diaries (which aren't always private for  
me either), which are pink little books girls write in until about 8th grade.  I hope that doesn't sound 
sexist; I use it as a stereotype I've heard."

Lennie  nods

Barclay_[Guest] says, "I'd not too if I were a better MOOer"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "errr nod, too"

Lennie  laughs

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "The enthymeme aspect, in some discussions such as oral cultures, 
assumes immediate understanding to be rhetorically effective.  In our textual, internet spheres, I see 
it as more dilatory."

Lennie [to John]: Our comprehension and memory definitely work differently.  So we need to employ 
different techniques?

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "I think we have to pull from wherever our readings, interests and experiences 
guide us.  And our students are different than we were as students in college, so if we want to enjoy while we 
teach we need to keep trying the new tools."

Lennie displays slide #10 on Web:

Closing Comments and Last Words?

Thanks so much for coming to this month's 1stMondays@AlaMOO

Next month's session will be A Discussion of "Think Different/Think Differently: A
Tale of Green Squiggly Lines, or Evaluating Student Writing in Computer- Mediated
Environments" 10/06/03 at 2-3 CDT, article by Carl Whithaus, Old Dominion University
from The Writing Instructor, Beta 2.5 July 2002.

Barclay_[Guest] says, "or developing new ones ;-)"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "Ooooo!  Looks like a good topic next time, too"

Lennie says, "it looks like our time is up... I hate keep you longer and I appreciate you coming"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "Thanks -- this was quite interesting"

Lennie says, "Next time I see either of you at a conference I owe you a beer!"

Barclay_[Guest] says, "So noted "

Lennie says, "Thank you!"

Scenters-Zapico_[Guest] says, "Thank you, Lennie.  Nice talking to all of you.  "


-- End log: Monday, September 8, 2003 3:01:26 pm AlaMOO time --