Start log: Monday, October 7, 2002 2:13:48 pm AlaMOO time –

Welcome to the October 2002 Edition of
1stMondays@AlaMOO

Today's Topic
A discussion about the hybrid use of technology for teaching writing and literature.

Today's Guest Participant: Nick Carbone

  Lennie displays slide #2 on Web:

Introductions

Before we get started, please send a brief message telling everyone here who you are and where you are from.

Also, you might include your email address to assist any others who wish to follow up the discussion at a later time.

Nick is Nick Carbone, Director of New Media, Bedford/St. Martins, ncarbone@bedfordstmartins.com
Mark_Twain says, "I'm Jan McStras, and am at St. Louis University"
Lennie waves to all. I'm Lennie from San Antonio College Lirvin@accd.edu
RichRice_[Guest] confesses he's at Texas Tech. r.rice@ttu.edu
susie says, "I'm Susie Crowson at Del Mar College in Corpus Christi Tx"
Lennie sticks his fingers up in a hook'em horns sign...
RichRice_[Guest] notices Lennie flashing
Nick says, "hi, Rich. How's the brand spanking new English building down in Lubbock?"
RichRice_[Guest] [to Nick]: Great! Rumor has it we might be invited you down!
 
Lennie says, "I have five of these "talking points." We certainly don't have to stick with them."
RichRice_[Guest] says, "Yeah, the building is VERY nice. And our football team is much better than A&M."
Lennie displays slide #6 on Web:

Talking Point 1

What are we talking about?--Defining what "hybrid use" means?

Before we get to far in our discussion, we should probably define just what hybrid use means. What is the range of uses and contexts that we would consider "hybrid use" of computer technology?

 
Lennie says, "Here's the first one."
susie says, "Get your Guns up Raiders"
RichRice_[Guest] smiles.
RichRice_[Guest] says, "Hybrid: part this, part that."
Nick likes to think of hybrid in terms of ration of clicks to bricks
RichRice_[Guest] has seen students throw bricks at computers before.
Mark_Twain says, "i'm thinking hybrid can be many permutations from totally online to part-time...hard to generalize about"
Lennie says, "Hybrid to me means two typical settings--1) teaching part in a computer classroom and part in a traditional classroom or 2) teaching all in a traditional classroom but you may have technology as a supplement--web pages, discussion board,"
Nick says, "classic hybrid is along the Marlboro model, where students meet face to face for a weekend and then work online for three weeks or so before coming together. It mixes distance and campus ed."
Lennie [to Nick]: Click to bricks. I haven't heard that before.
Nick says, "local hybrid might be along the lines Myron Tuman's laid out for years. Where you have some computer networked classrooms, but can't get enough to get every class in them full time, so all classes meet in them some of the time and other times meet in regular classrooms"
Mark Twain . o O ( this is what my lab does )
Lennie [to Nick]: That is the model that I see at my school (although we have room enough for some people to teach 100% of the time in the computer classrooms if they wish.)
Nick says, "Then there's TTU-hybrid, which is a way more ambitious version, and I think potentially far more reaching"
Mark_Twain says, "increasingly, more want to be in the lab than we can accommodate...so i guess that means we'll be more hybrid as time goes on?"
Lennie says, "Yes, the TTU-hybid model. "
Mark Twain . o O ( TTU hybrid? )
Lennie [to RichRice_[Guest]]: Take it away Rich!
RichRice_[Guest] points his guns-up. There's the idea of the classroom instruction / document instruction hybrid (in addition to having f2f and distance, why not separate teaching/assessment some?).
Nick says, "well, more hybrid's will arise as two things converge: the pressure to get students online in some way, which is still present, and the continued evaporation of public funding for higher education. Less money, more demand, leads to hybrids."
Lennie says, "But they need money to get students online also..."
Mark_Twain says, "how to make the most of these?"
Nick nods Rich, sort of the direction of TTU to an extent, right?
RichRice_[Guest] [to Nick]: Yep. But, some folk like Pete Sands have done studies which really point to how the hybrid is more effective for teaching composition.
Nick [to Lennie,]: yep, it always takes money. But Charlie Moran looked at the UMass budget over the years and found a pattern -- as faculty lines decreased, IT lines increased; as money for brick maintenance decreased, IT money grew.
Lennie [to RichRice_[Guest]]: Has Pete published his stuff? I'd like to read what he has said.
RichRice_[Guest] [to Lennie]: Nothing published yet, as far as I know. But I have one of his articles-in-waiting.
Nick [to RichRice_[Guest]]: I think Pete presented on this some at C&W in Muncie, didn't he?
Lennie nods
Lennie says, "OK, on to the next topic..."
Lennie displays slide #7 on Web:

Talking Point 2

Why choose to use technology in a hybrid way?

What are the reasons for choosing to use technology in a hybrid way? For what contexts is it especially suitable? Why do some teachers prefer a hybrid use of technology? What are teachers after with this mix of environments? What does the traditional classroom setting offer that they want to keep? What does the computer setting offer that they want to use?

Many teachers say that they don't want to use a computer classroom 100% because they want to keep traditonal classroom time. What are they saying the traditional classroom still has that the technological setting does not?

RichRice_[Guest] [to Nick]: Yep...he presented on it last year, too.
Lennie says, "We have hit on some of this WHY question already. Money."
Lennie says, "and access."
Lennie says, "But what about when teachers choose to do hybrid?"
RichRice_[Guest] says, "I think money is one reason, and the need to teach technological literacy is another. TTU's context is a third, too: we have a large number of tech/comm grads who are instructors. They need/want experience working with documents more than they do working as teachers."
Lennie says, "While some of my colleagues who are hybriders say they want to maintain the face to face community of the classroom, I think they are really trying to maintain the lecture teacher-student model that dominates a traditional classroom."
Mark_Twain says, "each serves a purpose"
Mark_Twain says, "the face to face is easier for students in some contexts"
Nick says, "I think teachers drift into hybrid potentials more naturally now adays. There are classes that meet full time in brick settings, but they supplement that class with computers: course WWW page; online discussion boards as spaces to do home work and collaborative activities out side of class, email discussion. But for discussion purposes, I want to think about hybrid as a thing where some of the credit hours are done online and the online isn't a mere add on to hours done face to face"
Mark_Twain says, "some hybrids allow more access more of the time"
RichRice_[Guest] says, "I agree, Lennie. Going hybrid, if that means going electronic, enables the administration to step in in sometimes positive but sometimes 'too controlling' ways. Same with teachers. Our teachers have taken 6 weeks to learn that the hybrid is a different animal. It's not some f2f and some de. It's hybrid. "
RichRice_[Guest] [to Nick]: "Nice phrase, 'hybrid potentials'
Lennie says, "I think that many teachers who use technology in a hybrid way are really either a bit uncomfortable with technology or are suspicious of using it completely as the means and medium for learning."
Mark_Twain says, "or perhaps not confident that they are using it the 'right' way"
Nick says, "I like hybrid is different animal, different genetic make up, but I think too that everyone's first impuls is to take a skin graft approach -- graft onto the technology whatever they do in the f2f room."
Lennie laughs at skin graft! I know what you mean.
susie says, "That skin graft is exactly what I thought I wanted to do."
RichRice_[Guest] says, "For TTU, we've cut the classroom instruction time in half, literally. There's no time for the teacher to diddle-dattle in class. What's interesting in our model, though, is that the classroom instructors don't do the grading, necessarily. They don't mess with the technology. They teach writing only. No time to take tech questions in a class that meets f2f half the time and puts the onus of learning on the other half (the online half) on the student. "
Lennie passes Susie the tape
Mark Twain (asleep) has disconnected.
Lennie says, "I think Mark had to leave early to pick up his kid."
RichRice_[Guest] shoots off to find a manual...about TOPIC. Don't mean to push y'all on this, but thought you might be interested...
RichRice_[Guest] shares a URL. (http://english.ttu.edu:5555/manual/manualread.asp?number=1&typeof=manual)

Nick says, "There's greater illusion of control f2f, and that appeals to teachers. So f2f offers that; and there are pleasures of presence. It's nice to see the faces of the people you're teaching; body language does mean a lot; hand and eye gestures, seating arrangements, all the physicality of classroom are both comforting and useful"
susie [to RichRice_[Guest]]: I think what you just described is sort of what I've been wanting to do. I teach some classes fully on line and others fully f2f. I want the best of both worlds
susie says, "But I doubt if I could get anyone else to grade my students papers"
RichRice_[Guest] [to Nick]: "Fred has a name for this: the mythos of presence he calls it
Lennie [to RichRice_[Guest]]: But a lot of our teachers believe in that presence.
RichRice_[Guest] [to susie]: There's that. Of course, it's a portfolio-esque model with group grading, but it isn't holistic assessment. EVERYTHING is assessed.
Nick says, "Rich, and Fred uses mythos very carefully, I bet. He knows that the myth has appeal because it's often true, if romanticized. "
Lennie says, "Fred has a way with words. Mythos of presence seems particularly challenging and interesting at the same time."
RichRice_[Guest] [to Lennie]: There's the rub. I did too. But I gotta tell you...teaching with TOPIC for a few weeks now...I like it. I am a facilitator as opposed to writing dictator. You know? Sometimes it boils down to this: the mythos is a powerful thing...but it's fueled by the teacher holding the grade, a negative thing, most oftentimes.
Lennie says, "the problem of authority"
Nick [to RichRice_[Guest]]: "to what extent is the f2f portion of the ICON set up necessary? How does having students meet f2f help foster community later when they go online and do something like peer review?
RichRice_[Guest] says, "It's a much different classroom."
Lennie [to Nick]: Good question.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Mark_Twain off to bed.
RichRice_[Guest] says, "Well, what's interesting Nick is that the online class portion is a freshman-wide thing. That is, it's a common syllabus, EVERYONE is writing the same thing at the same time."
RichRice_[Guest] says, "So, as it's set up, there are no groups online."
Lennie [to RichRice_[Guest]]: There is not online peer review?
RichRice_[Guest] says, "students critique another student's work, anonymously"
Nick notes most studies he's read say distance ed. programs that incorporate some f2f time are the more successful in terms of learning outcomes, retention, and other factors
RichRice_[Guest] says, "But it's never the same person, likely never a person from the same class, in fact."
Nick wows random access peer review
RichRice_[Guest] says, "Retention is key. But then again, this is a course everyone has to take at Tech. And Texas, I believe, is doing away with the Clep test. And, there's no other way you can takae this course at Tech. Must take the hybrid. "
RichRice_[Guest] says, "Good and bad."
Lennie says, "Interesting choice to make it anonomous peer review. I guess that enables quicker potential turn around times for reviews because then you don't have to wait for someone to turn in their work."
Nick [to RichRice_[Guest]]: how is peer review taught
RichRice_[Guest] [to Lennie]: That's one of the main purposes, I think. Also, gives the impression that your writing has to stand for itself, that we're all on equal footing if anonymous, somehow.
RichRice_[Guest] [to Nick]: "In the f2f section, questions are given and discussed. Classroom instructors offer models. Prompts are given (we're talking Fred Kemp, Daedalus....)... ample prompts.
Nick says, "Rich, yeah, the course is required, but writing courses are also gate keepers, and retention helpers, especially on large campuses. They're one of the few courses where students are in a small class and the teacher learns their name. Passing is necessary to go on. And other things along those lines which all contribute to student success in college."
Lennie [to RichRice_[Guest]]: The way you have homogenized the curriculum--do they really write on the same topics campus wide?--reminds me of the Amherst English 12 program where the whole school wrote on the same topics. Smaller school though.
Nick nods prompts
RichRice_[Guest] [to Nick]: that's a good point.
RichRice_[Guest] [to Lennie]: Yes, and there are good things and bad things. But, the prompts are very open.
Lennie says, "I'm going to move on to the next talking point..."
RichRice_[Guest] says, "I honestly think this model works great here at Tech, but it's not for every program."
Lennie displays slide #8 on Web:

Talking Point 3
When it works

What are some instances where the hybrid situation worked? Can we share some instances?

What caused this happy event where technology and the traditional classroom worked in harmony?

 
Nick says, "I'm guessing that one reason TOPIC's gotten so much support is that you'll be able to show to admin types how students are doing, where they stand, and so on. It's an incredibly rich database"
Lennie agrees. Databases will help the research stuff a lot.
Lennie says, "I think we already mentioned that hybrid seems to work when it has its own genetics, rather than being a grafted-on part of a traditional curriculum."
Nick says, "Hybrid's worked for Marlboro Graduate center very well; that's a distance model; I think it's going to do very well at TTU, as Rich has laid it out, because the people behind know what they're doing and they tailored the program's design to meet TTU's needs"
RichRice_[Guest] nods.
RichRice_[Guest] says, "gotta have a ton of planning, of course, whenever computers are involved"
RichRice_[Guest] [to Nick]: You bet. But, as a classroom instructor, I don't know all my students' names. I don't grade their papers. I don't offer a participation grade. It's about as close to teaching without grades with still having grades that you can get.
Lennie [to Nick]: But what about for teachers like at my school who teach in the computer classroom one day a week?
Nick says, "Hybrid also works where teachers who are doing it can imagine ways to find the balance they need, can learn how to use what's good from f2f and digital settings both complimentarily and for what each can best foster "
Lennie says, "How do they make this hybrid situation work?"
Lennie [to Nick]: What is that complimentary balance? What works in each setting helping to amplify the other?
Nick [to Lennie]: I think for meeting in comp. class one day per week, the first iteration is to do treat the classroom like a lab, the way science teachers do. Teachers try consciously do a computer activity that day. And so the room is a subset or subserviant to the larger syllabus/geographical setting.
Lennie agrees.
Lennie says, "I would say that this "lab" use is a "lesser" kind of hybrid use, no?"
Nick says, "And that's a good start, really. Use the room to teach online research skills, how to understand and control a grammar checker, introduce students to the WWW board where they'll post homework assignments, show them how to chat, and so on. "
Nick nods Lennie, labs are less of hybrid use. Bigger hybrid use would be, for a 3 day per week class, that you might meet 1.5 days face to face, in either brick or brick and click room, and rest of time only online.
susie says, "And what about thos of us who want to have about half or less of the traditional seat time and yeah, what Nick just said"
Lennie [to Nick]: So they would only meet half the normal class time, sort of like TTU's set up?
Nick says, "Eventually, instructors, with some coaching, do become used to the technology, and the lab becomes less a how-to space and more a can-do space that doesn't necessarily have to happen with everyone at once"
RichRice_[Guest] says, "I'm struck by the word 'balance.' Good word. But like the rhetorical triangle, the balance is not just f2f and distance. Student and teacher and administrative experience and comfort with teaching with technology is in the mix."
Lennie agrees with Rich
Lennie says, "What I see a lot here is that the comfort level with technology AND the teacher's own notions of how learning happens determines the "hybrid" use."
Lennie says, "If teachers are not so comfortable with technology and not so comfortable with students sharing their work and learning from each other, then the technology use is very limited."
Lennie says, "Let's type papers in "lab""
Lennie says, "We'll do an invention exercise to turn in by the end of class (just to me--the teacher)."
Nick says, "Yes, Lennie, it all comes down to teacher comfort. Imagine meeting f2f one day a week, in a networked classroom one day, and the third credit hour, relying on students using asynch and real time tools to meet one another to get work done w/ no preset seat time."
Lennie says, "I think I can imagine it. I wonder what our administration would think of it..."
RichRice_[Guest] says, "interuption, sorry. About comfortability, kind of. We have a listserv here for the teachers in the program using TOPIC. Susan Lang just sent out this message a minute ago. Thought I'd send it here... Susan says: Just wanted to let you know that as of about an hour ago, 708 2.1 drafts remained to be responded to and returned to students. That means that since last Wednesday, we've responded to approximately 1100 drafts! While that number is impressive, let's keep in mind that 2.2s will begin arriving on "
Nick says, "the more teachers can foster student-to-student learning, and the more they can be there as support, the easier it is to move to hybrid. A good f2f class in a brick only room is one where I don't have to say a thing"
RichRice_[Guest] says, "Wednesday. Let's show students what we're capable of and that we have their "
RichRice_[Guest] says, "best interests in mind."
Lennie [to Nick]: That is a good class.
RichRice_[Guest] [to Nick]: "I agree. We've moved in those directions some.
Lennie [to susie]: Will do. Great to "see" you. See you this weekend at TYCA!
Nick [to susie]: "I'll be at TYCA too; look forward to meeting you f2f as well
Nick [to susie]: or did we meet already last year -- I was at Delmar for a visit at one point
Lennie says, "I thought Susie was in here, but she had already wandered out..."
RichRice_[Guest] notes that Nick is the ultimate hybrid. Part everything.
Lennie says, "Bye Susie. Thanks for coming!"
susie (asleep) has disconnected.
RichRice_[Guest] [to Lennie]: How many teachers, would you say, are relying on computers quite a bit in your program?
Nick [to RichRice_[Guest]]: I think people are naturally hybrid, and more and more so as multitasking becomes a norm and as the technology becomes common place. In the last few years, every student I've had has already had an email address, as have most teachers. Working online is becoming a natural extension of who we are *and* what we do, so moving to more intense hybrids will become easier to manage over time
Lennie [to RichRice_[Guest]]: We have 14 to 18 faculty in the computer classrooms and then about 12 doing distance ed (some are doing both).
RichRice_[Guest] nodes to Nice. To Lennie, that's impressive. Lots going on!
RichRice_[Guest] says, "er, nods to Nick."
Lennie [to Nick]: I still find that among English faculty there is a general resistance to technology.
Nick [to Lennie]: I think a big stumbling block is always and will always be interface and what the programs allow and encourage
Lennie says, "There is something sacred about presence."
Lennie agrees. I wish I could find the perfect interface.
Lennie says, "I wish MOOs were it, but this MOO scares faculty off faster than anything I know..."
Lennie says, "I want to display one last talking point because I think it is something important."
Lennie displays slide #10 on Web:

Talking Point 5

What sort of special training or preparation do teachers need for hybrid use?

We should recognize that hybrid use of technology calls on teachers to operate often times with incredible adeptness. What can help teachers prepare for this "dance" that is the hybrid use of technology?

RichRice_[Guest] [to Lennie]: you and Fred will forever argue about presence... ;-)
Lennie [to RichRice_[Guest]]: I was being ironic. I sort of get where Fred is coming from.
The housekeeper arrives to cart susie off to bed.
RichRice_[Guest] says, "good terms...dancing and balancing"
Lennie says, "I have always felt like some special training was needed for teachers using technology, but I haven't had much success seeing it really happen or have much effect."
Nick [to Lennie]: presence is sacred, but the mistake is thinking that online people are not present. They very present. I always ask these people about voice -- when they read Dickens, or Adrienne Rich, or Shakespeare, do they say the writers are absent, voiceless? A good online class, with discussion and student voices, makes those people as present -- sometimes more present than sitting mutely -- as any f2f situation. What it's really about, often, is the teacher's need to be present and to feel in command of the room; it's peformance anxiety.
Lennie [to Nick]: Yes, presence and control sort of become synonyms...
Lennie says, "I suppose some teachers really want to control their classrooms (hence the "narrative" often is monologic rather than dialogic)."
Nick says, "in regards to five -- the only thing that can help teachers is more time online, growing literacy, and easy to use software. "
RichRice_[Guest] says, "One thing that I really believe is that the hybrid is NOT simply a combination of f2f and de delivery techniques. I think it's something different. I think of it like I think about multimodal composing (writing with graphics and text), about about nonative hypertext (like Kairos)...must go hand-in-hand. You can't add one to other and make it all work. Both must grow together."
RichRice_[Guest] says, "and, more practically, what Nick said."
RichRice_[Guest] says, "and what Lennie said."
Lennie laughs
RichRice_[Guest] says, "the hybrid is a dialogic animal."
Nick says, "It comes down to getting people used to doing stuff, even though they might not see the need. And that's the rub -- during the learning curve and adjustment to technology, it becomes harder as well as different to do what one used to"
Lennie [to Nick]: Yes, but other things become easier.
Lennie says, "I think often for "hybrid" to work everyone must be "online" or have their work in electronic format. Sometimes that alone is a hurdle to high to jump."
Lennie says, "Well shall we call it?"
Lennie displays slide #12 on Web:

Thanks for coming!
Thanks for attending another 1stMondays@AlaMOO

I invite you to attend November's session on November 4th from 2-3 CST.

The topic will be on uses of synchronous writing, based on an article by Patrick Sullivan published the May edition of TETYC:
"Reimagining Class Discussion in the Age of the Internet."
http://www.ncte.org/pdfs/subscribers-only/tetyc/0294-may02/TE0294Reimagining.pdf

See you then.

The link to the transcript of this session will be sent to today's participants in the next couple days.

RichRice_[Guest] [to Lennie]: I agree. Of course, part of what we teach is technological literacy.
Nick says, "eventually things become easier, but there's always a period where the change is hard, it's a risk. It's like changing your golf swing. During the period of making the change, your swing gets worse and your old swing looks better and you wonder why bother? Same with teaching and pedagogy. Changing pedagogy is hard."
RichRice_[Guest] [to Lennie]: or, as Joel English says, we're in danger of graduating functionally illiterate students.
Lennie says, "I really enjoyed talking with you all today."
Lennie [to RichRice_[Guest]]: Say hi to the TTU folks.
RichRice_[Guest] says, "me too! I will, Lennie."
Nick thinks it was nice to hear your voices, all
Lennie [to Nick]: When will you make it in to SA?

-- End log: Monday, October 7, 2002 3:08:59 pm AlaMOO time --